BRXII Battle talk

[ChasClean]

The sad thing is that Universalism calls God evil if the Bible is right about eternal punishment for unbelievers

The only reason you are a believer, and no longer an unbeliever, is because God made you into a believer. If He didn't and you worked up "your belief" Yourself, then you merited it and Goodbye Grace.

This is one of the deceptive tricks of Universalism. It thrives on appealing to the emotions.

Same to you. What about these emotional points:

Are you saying Hitler is going to heaven?

What was the purpose of the death of Jesus if there isn’t a hell?

Are you saying you can sin like crazy and still go to heaven?

Yes, God is a God of love, but He is also JUST.

SINNERS IN THE HANDS OF AN ANGRY GOD.

Accept Jesus now or you will not only burn forever, but also ever.

God told Adam in Genesis chapter 3 that it was BECAUSE of what HE HAD DONE that he was cursed.

And God didn’t know what the outcome would be when He put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Serpent right there in front of innocent Adam, who didn’t even know the difference between right and wrong?

OK, let's put on our thinking caps.

And then God told him not to eat of it. That insured that he would eat of it.

Rom. 7:10 I found that the very commandment (Do Not Covet That Tree or any commandment from God) that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

God’s command to Adam had the same effect as His commands to Moses.

It is the doctrine of eternal torment alone, which is causing many to believe God isn't really all knowing. As long as ET is held on to then God can’t be all knowing.

But the Bible says that all who believe will go! They are on the right path, they are in the right crowd, they are going through the right gate, and they will be in the right destination!

I know God is grateful that He at least has a few Faithful, Obedient, Christians like us. Or He would have ended up with no one.


If they live up to the light they have I believe God will allow them to hear the message to be saved.”

Yeah, me too. I believe if we are really good and have good hearts and are better than the other savages around us, then we have earned grace. And as we all know by looking around in this life; life is fair. Well, isn’t it?

According to the Joshua Project http://www.joshuaproject.net/index.php there are 6505 Unreached People Groups. That’s 41.1% of all people groups have never heard.

So, no one in any of those groups responded properly to the light they had. BOY, now that takes some faith to believe.

The Universalist dogmatically asserts that the words in the Bible are translated wrongly. They will only accept verses that are translated in a way that agrees with their doctrine of Universal Salvation.

Excuse me. Are you trying to dogmatically assert something? Have you ever heard of aionios? Oh, you have? Then you know there is ample evidence of the word being used before, during and after NT times as meaning limited duration. For you to dogmatically assert otherwise is wrong.

 

[CabinetMaker]

What are the two greatest commandments according to Jesus?

"'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." - Jesus (Matthew 22:37-39 NKJ)

How can God require me to love my neighbor and be OK with Him toasting them in the end. If you love someone you can't stand the thought of any harm coming to them. How can I be OK with that? I'm not, and if I'm wrong I will answer to God for it. But so be it. That's how I feel and I can't hide it from Him.

Kimberlyann,
what does it mean to love your neighbor?

 

[ChasClean]

Sorry about this repeat post. The quotes got all messed up in # 561.

The sad thing is that Universalism calls God evil if the Bible is right about eternal punishment for unbelievers

The only reason you are a believer, and no longer an unbeliever, is because God made you into a believer. If He didn't and you worked up "your belief" Yourself, then you merited it and Goodbye Grace.

This is one of the deceptive tricks of Universalism. It thrives on appealing to the emotions.

Same to you. What about these emotional points:

Are you saying Hitler is going to heaven?

What was the purpose of the death of Jesus if there isn’t a hell?

Are you saying you can sin like crazy and still go to heaven?

Yes, God is a God of love, but He is also JUST.

SINNERS IN THE HANDS OF AN ANGRY GOD.

Accept Jesus now or you will not only burn forever, but also ever.

God told Adam in Genesis chapter 3 that it was BECAUSE of what HE HAD DONE that he was cursed.

And God didn’t know what the outcome would be when He put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Serpent right there in front of innocent Adam, who didn’t even know the difference between right and wrong.

And then God told him not to eat of it. That insured that he would eat of it.

Rom. 7:10 I found that the very commandment (Do Not Covet That Tree or any commandment from God) that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

God’s command to Adam had the same effect as His commands to Moses.

It is the doctrine of eternal torment alone, which is causing many to believe God isn't really all knowing. As long as ET is held on to then God can’t be all knowing.

But the Bible says that all who believe will go! They are on the right path, they are in the right crowd, they are going through the right gate, and they will be in the right destination!

I know God is grateful that He at least has a few Faithful, Obedient, Christians like us. Or He would have ended up with no one.

If they live up to the light they have I believe God will allow them to hear the message to be saved.”

Yeah, me too. I believe if we are really good and have good hearts and are better than the other savages around us, then we have earned grace. And as we all know by looking around in this life; life is fair. Well, isn’t it?

According to the Joshua Project http://www.joshuaproject.net/index.php there are 6505 Unreached People Groups. That’s 41.1% of all people groups have never heard.

So, no one in any of those groups responded properly to the light they had. BOY, now that takes some faith to believe.

The Universalist dogmatically asserts that the words in the Bible are translated wrongly. They will only accept verses that are translated in a way that agrees with their doctrine of Universal Salvation.

Excuse me. Are you trying to dogmatically assert something? Have you ever heard of aionios? Oh, you have? Then you know there is ample evidence of the word being used before, during and after NT times as meaning limited duration. For you to dogmatically assert otherwise is wrong.

 

[Poly]

Man, what a vile, wicked thing we Ultimate Reconciliationists have been doing... SURELY deserving of being banned from this forum... You my friend are an idiot...

Don't you get it? It's a very low thing to copy somebody else's work and pretend it's your own. Not to mention against TOL rules. Not only did a participant of a TOL Battle Royale stoop to this, but now others who are trying to support him and defend what he believes have done this.

All participants of TOL Battle Royales have been highly regarded, in my opinion, because of their willingness to take the time to put into it what they do, no matter which opponent I'm pulling for or who I feel ends up winning the debate.

No matter who is battling what, TOL doesn't take their efforts lightly. But this is kind of a first. I think logos_x did a pretty shameful thing and I think it's very sad that some are so desperate to defend what he believes, they won't even take the time to rebuke him.

If I was like minded with a BR opponent who was defending a strong belief of mine and he ended up doing something like this, I would be the first in line to tell him that no matter what good actually DID come from him what he did was shameful and kind of slap in the face to others who have given so much effort to these battles.

 

[bigbang123]

Universalism lost.

in different and similiar ways - they both lost

PastorKevin's position - biblical and one of the biggest obstacles to faith in the bible being divinely authored. he fully embraces the despicable teaching of the bible on the subject.

Logos_X position - biblically based wishful grasping at hemeneutical straws. he unsuccessfully trys to explain why the supposedly misunderstood teaching of scriptures is
not as despicable as it appears.

Originally Posted by bigbang123

they are both victims of trying to derive a coherent, gracious and righteous theology from the largely noble but flawed work of men (THE BIBLE).

 

[CabinetMaker]

in different and similiar ways - they both lost




Originally Posted by bigbang123

they are both victims of trying to derive a coherent, gracious and righteous theology from the largely noble but flawed work of men (THE BIBLE).

And here we differ. Both Logos and PastorKevin believe, and rightly so, that the Bible is divine in insperation. One of them is guilty of trying to impose upon the Bible his own interpretation of what the Bible says (Logos) and the other has done a much better job of presenting the truth as the Bible teaches it (PastorKevin).

The Bible is not the work of men. Men may have served as scribes but the authorship is devine. The Bible may have some arguments about various translations and it may be possible that miss-translations have occured. But the truth that God wants for us to know is maintaind and preserved.

 

[Nineveh]

You see it as kidnapping - I see it as someone pulling an unconscious person out of a burning building... I won't answer the rest of your points - they have all been discussed here...

I won't expect a reply, as you are banned and all, but...

Getting saved out of the burning building is done while we draw breath, not after we die of asphyxiation. As Paul says, we are without excuse.

 

[Nineveh]

i believe Paul also says that if it's only in this life we have hope then we are of all men to be most pitied,

Could you give a verse to that?

I'd also love to know how you believe that God isnt the saviour of all men

I've never said that. "For God so loved the world..."

especially of believers - and how Jesus ransom for all - to be testified to in due time will actually only be for a few........

"...that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

What a cop out, the whole 'muffin' segment is so flawed...

Rather, it's a simple analogy you choose not to see. Nothing new from you here.

there's no point in adding an 'ever' to forever, it seems that you just dont want to be open to aion not actually meaning what you infer it to

PK totally destroyed this argument more than once in the BR. I'm sure you missed it though, it was one of his more obvious points.

Well everyone will bow their knee and every tongue will confess....

And this one...

Why wouldnt everyone -once they have a knowledge of the truth- not want it???

Paul said we are without excuse. The Truth is plain, but some love themselves far more than God. I'm sorry you don't like that idea but it happens. It's documented in the Bible over and over, nothing new under the sun.

I'm amazed at those who think it would somehow be possible to still reject God....you say that God isnt a kidnapper - he wouldnt have to be!! And the helathy view of love is to what........throw people into a pit of endless burning fire.....righto......

Until you take over an become God, He allows for freewill. Whether you want folks like Gerald to love God or not really doesn't mean a hill of beans to Gerald. God gave Gerald his own freewill despite you. You can try to persuade Gerald, but you can't force Gerald and you certainly can't force God to force Gerald.

It's amazing so many who claim to serve God try to justify kidnapping and make like it's a perfectly acceptable form of Love. Especially after knowing God said such a thing is punishable by death. I wonder how many of you kidnapped your spouse and then pretended when they were clawing their way out it really meant they loved you.

:doh:

Indeed.

Er....this is the weakest answer i've seen for the verse "God is the saviour of all men, especially of believers", you havent even attempted to address the verse itself! It sounds like God is the saviour of everyone - not just of believers but especially of believers, why would it or how could it mean anything different? If it meant only those who believe like the way you somehow seem to interpret it then the word 'especially' wouldnt be in there,
Have another go

John and Paul are saying the same thing. Why do you insist it *could be* something else? They are in agreement, it appears the only way you can make your claim is to have them disagree. Sad.

 

[bigbang123]

you are right

you say

And here we differ... The Bible is not the work of men. Men may have served as scribes but the authorship is divine...But the truth that God wants for us to know is maintaind and preserved.

and i say

it's largely noble but flawed work of men


where does that leave us?

"Every sect is a certificate that God has not plainly revealed his will to man. To each reader the Bible conveys a different meaning."

Robert Green Ingersoll [/SIZE]

here is the opinion of one of the christians in this forum

..I believe the apostles did probably write inspired words....but those writings don't exist anymore.

Problem is...He DIDN'T protect those writings. He allowed ALL the original writings of the Apostles to be destroyed. None still exist today....and the earliest COPY of the NT that we have dates to the 3rd century...and since we have no originals to compare it to...we have no way of knowing if it is anywhere close to what was originally penned. Alot of errors and corruptions can creep into an ancient text in 100 years.

Why didn't God protect the original writings of the apostles if He wanted to actually preserve His "word"? Why did He allow ALL of them to be destroyed?

so what conclusion should a skeptic, nonchristian or unbeliever come to?

no way the majority of the inhabitants of this planet throughout
history will believe it's message that supposedly serves as the basis of their eternal destination after they leave this life.

 

[PKevman]

you are right

you say



and i say

it's largely noble but flawed work of men


where does that leave us?



here is the opinion of one of the christians in this forum



so what conclusion should a skeptic, nonchristian or unbeliever come to?

no way the majority of the inhabitants of this planet throughout
history will believe it's message that supposedly serves as the basis of their eternal destination after they leave this life.

Bigbang, the mistake you made is in quoting a person who utterly rejected the Bible as the inspired inerrant Word of God and using him as your example of a Christian on this website. He was also banned for rude behavior if memory serves me right. Seems you would find a bit of a stronger source to base your entire views of the Bible and Christianity, sir (with all due respect).

God bless.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Kimberlyann,
what does it mean to love your neighbor?

I believe it means that treat people the same way we want them to treat us, and to have mercy and show compassion to those who are suffering.

Maybe Jesus could explain it better.

Luke 10 (NASB)
10:25
And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life ?"
10:26
And He said to him, "What is written in the Law ? How does it read to you?"
10:27
And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 10:28
And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."
10:29
But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor ?"
10:30
Jesus replied and said, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho , and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat * him, and went away leaving him half dead.
10:31
"And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
10:32
"Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
10:33
"But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion,
10:34
and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him.
10:35
"On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of him; and whatever * * more you spend, when I return I will repay you.'
10:36
"Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?"
10:37
And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same."

We must compassion on anyone who suffers, even our enemies.

Luke 6 (NASB)
6:27
"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

6:28
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Man, what a vile, wicked thing we Ultimate Reconciliationists have been doing... SURELY deserving of being banned from this forum... You my friend are an idiot... PLEASE ban me...

:think: plagiarism might not be "vile" but it certainly is lame and is also against the TOL rules.

Feel free to start your own internet forum and you can let people rip off other people's material in every post.

 

[solarb]

clueness and condescending

clueness and condescending

Following your child-like logic, then, love already failed, big time, when Jesus died upon the cross, for He asked The Father: "...let this cup pass from Me..." when Paul prayed that the thorn be removed from his flesh, and all those times when I prayed for universalists: "Dear Lord, open their eyes to The Truth, so that they may know Your Word, and what It means." :think:

Translation: "Dear Lord, open their eyes to The Truth " Like Mine" so they to may know Your Word, and what it means, like I do."

 

[CabinetMaker]

you are right

you say



and i say

it's largely noble but flawed work of men


where does that leave us?

I am okay with where I am. Where does it leave you?

so what conclusion should a skeptic, nonchristian or unbeliever come to?

Whatever conclusion they wish. If they choose not to believe, if they choose not to be obedient to God, then they may draw any conclusion they wish.

I come upon a mountain road full of curves while driving in my Ferrari (I wish!!) with a posted speed limit of 45. I know their are laws against speeding and I know that there are cconsequences for breaking them. I have not seen a cop all day so I conclude that the cops do not enforce the speed limit in this area. Away I go and I have a creat time! At the end of the road is cop and he writes me a VERY large speeding ticket. Did my erroneous conclusion about the lack of enforcement prevent from getting a ticket? I go before the judge and explain to him that since I didn't see any cops that must mean that the speed limit laws are not enforced in the area so I should not be held accountable. Do you think the judge will accept that argument?

no way the majority of the inhabitants of this planet throughout
history will believe it's message that supposedly serves as the basis of their eternal destination after they leave this life.

Are you sure? The catholic church ruled for a long long time. While they were not perfect, they did present the Bible to an awful lot of humanity. Not all, but a lot. As to the rest of the world, God has not told us. So how do I handle that? I trust God. It is His creation. He knows ALL the rules. I know what He wants me to know. I do not need to know how the whole of humanity through history will be judged to trust God to do the right thing.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I believe it means that treat people the same way we want them to treat us, and to have mercy and show compassion to those who are suffering.

Maybe Jesus could explain it better.




We must compassion on anyone who suffers, even our enemies.

Is that all it means? To treat others as we want to be treated and show compassion to those who suffer?

How did Jesus show His love to His deciples? Look at the Gospels for the descriptions of the last supper.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Shameless plug for Post 529 on Page 36. Any thoughts?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

We must compassion on anyone who suffers, even our enemies.

It isn't compassionate to allow a rapist to live in the same house as his victim is it?

A good father loves all his children. But out of love He would never let one hurt the other one for an eternity. God is also a gentleman, He doesn't force people to be with Him if they do not wish to be.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Bigbang, the mistake you made is in quoting a person who utterly rejected the Bible as the inspired inerrant Word of God and using him as your example of a Christian on this website. He was also banned for rude behavior if memory serves me right. Seems you would find a bit of a stronger source to base your entire views of the Bible and Christianity, sir (with all due respect).

God bless.

If they banned people for simply being rude they would have to get rid of half of the posters on TOL.

I respect Echo a great deal and I'm proud to call him a friend.

I guess he was just a little to divisive for TOL.

Did you know he used to be a Southern Baptist preacher for many years before he became a Christian Universalist?

 

[PKevman]

The only reason you are a believer, and no longer an unbeliever, is because God made you into a believer. If He didn't and you worked up "your belief" Yourself, then you merited it and Goodbye Grace.

So unless the chef forces the muffins down your throat you arent eating them? I thought the "Psycho Chef" wasn't a good analogy? For the 1,000,000th time, it is a free gift friend. That means you can accept it or reject it. Do YOU pay for a free gift? NO. The giver of the gift pays for it. Christ payed for the free gift of salvation on the cross of Calvary. Grace is God granting us salvation when we don't deserve it because we are dirty stinking sinners!

And God didn’t know what the outcome would be when He put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Serpent right there in front of innocent Adam, who didn’t even know the difference between right and wrong.

Can you prove that the serpent was created at the same time as the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? Actually, Lucifer's fall was AFTER everything was created. How I say that? Because God said everything He had created was good when He was finisthed with creation. If Satan has already corrupted himself at this point, then God would be lying when He said everything He had made was good. The fact is, at the time of the creation of everything, Satan had not YET fallen.

Rom. 7:10 I found that the very commandment (Do Not Covet That Tree or any commandment from God) that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

God’s command to Adam had the same effect as His commands to Moses.

When I open my Bible and read that section of Scripture, I do not find these words:
"Do Not Covet That Tree or any commandment from God"
It is utterly reprehensible to add your own words alongside Scripture and try to make them equal with Scripture. It is one of the major tenets of false teaching.

I know God is grateful that He at least has a few Faithful, Obedient, Christians like us. Or He would have ended up with no one.

Total Straw man, not even nearly indicative of a Biblical Christian's viewpoint.

Yeah, me too. I believe if we are really good and have good hearts and are better than the other savages around us, then we have earned grace. And as we all know by looking around in this life; life is fair. Well, isn’t it?

According to the Joshua Project http://www.joshuaproject.net/index.php there are 6505 Unreached People Groups. That’s 41.1% of all people groups have never heard.

God says:
Jeremiah 49:13
13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Excuse me. Are you trying to dogmatically assert something? Have you ever heard of aionios? Oh, you have? Then you know there is ample evidence of the word being used before, during and after NT times as meaning limited duration. For you to dogmatically assert otherwise is wrong.

Have you ever heard of Battle Royale XII? That is what this thread is about. How about you read it and ask questions that actually indicate you comprehend the arguments made instead of offering up the same tired arguments of Universalism over and over again!

God bless!

 

[PKevman]

If they banned people for simply being rude they would have to get rid of half of the posters on TOL.

I respect Echo a great deal and I'm proud to call him a friend.

I guess he was just a little to divisive for TOL.

Did you know he used to be a Southern Baptist preacher for many years before he became a Christian Universalist?

Yes I remember him saying that. I think it is reprehensible that the Bible College he went to didn't teach him sound apologetics, when one of his big arguments against Biblical innerancy were the differing accounts of the thieves on the cross.
This is one of the basic things they teach you in Bible college. (before you ever even get to seminary!)