BRXII Battle talk

[CabinetMaker]

The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death;
(1Co 15:26 WNT)

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Okay. But you will note from the verse above that the dead are judged before death is cast down. You should also note from the verses above that those whose names were not in the book of life are to be cast into the same lake of fire that death is cast into. Death does not return from the lake of fire so why would anything else be allowed to return from the lake of fire.

 

[logos_x]

Okay. But you will note from the verse above that the dead are judged before death is cast down. You should also note from the verses above that those whose names were not in the book of life are to be cast into the same lake of fire that death is cast into. Death does not return from the lake of fire so why would anything else be allowed to return from the lake of fire.

No...death does not return from the Lake of Fire. Neither has it any victory after it is destroyed. For death to be destroyed it can hold no one in it's power. When death is overcome as the LAST enemy...there are no more enemies.

 

[CabinetMaker]

No...death does not return from the Lake of Fire. Neither has it any victory after it is destroyed. For death to be destroyed it can hold no one in it's power. When death is overcome as the LAST enemy...there are no more enemies.

Yes, and all of those judged were thrown into the same lake of fire that death was thrown into. So all of God's enemies are in the lake of fire.

Now, if as you say, the lake of fire only lasts one age-during, what happens at the end of that age-during? Everybody gets out of the lake fire? Including death? Including Satan? Including the beast?

 

[logos_x]

Yes, and all of those judged were thrown into the same lake of fire that death was thrown into. So all of God's enemies are in the lake of fire.

Now, if as you say, the lake of fire only lasts one age-during, what happens at the end of that age-during? Everybody gets out of the lake fire? Including death? Including Satan? Including the beast?

Death is destroyed. It IS the last enemy...and nothing will be held by it in the end.
The second death...all death, is destroyed.

Yes...everyone gets out. But not while remaining the same way they were when they went in.

Everyone cast into the lake of fire went in decieved. That too will be destroyed.
Everything that is against God is powerless and it holds no one captive. There is NO MORE CURSE!

Death is defeated...it doesn't get out. Sin is defeated. It doesn't get out. Even Satan will no longer be Satan. There are no enemies left. All things are in subjection to Christ....not an enemy.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Death is destroyed. It IS the last enemy...and nothing will be held by it in the end.
The second death...all death, is destroyed.

You are denying the scripture. There is nothing in scripture that says the second death is anything but being cast into the lake of fire. To deny that is to deny the witness of scripure.

Yes...everyone gets out. But not while remaining the same way they were when they went in.

If that is true then you must believe that death regains its power as it gets out of the lake of fire.

Everyone cast into the lake of fire went in decieved. That too will be destroyed.
Everything that is against God is powerless and it holds no one captive. There is NO MORE CURSE!

I agree but that does not mean that the lake of fire releases those that were put their by the Lamb of God.

Death is defeated...it doesn't get out. Sin is defeated. It doesn't get out. Even Satan will no longer be Satan. There are no enemies left. All things are in subjection to Christ....not an enemy.

Subjectation to God does not require that you be present with God. Those in the lake of fire are subjet to God's wrath.

 

[logos_x]

You are denying the scripture. There is nothing in scripture that says the second death is anything but being cast into the lake of fire. To deny that is to deny the witness of scripure.

How?
Being cast into the lake of fire IS the second death.
I've affirmed this...not denied it.

If that is true then you must believe that death regains its power as it gets out of the lake of fire.

What? Death is defeated...how can it be said and be made more plain than that?

I agree but that does not mean that the lake of fire releases those that were put their by the Lamb of God.

The complete obliteration of evil....yet people burn for all eternity?
Man...I don't know what it's going to take to cause you to open your eyes and see what it is that you are saying and how ludicrous it is.

Subjectation to God does not require that you be present with God. Those in the lake of fire are subjet to God's wrath.

Then death IS victorious and they are NOT in subjection to CHRIST. Death holds them captive, and does so for all eternity.

This is what happens when you make something "aionion" eternal when the Bible never says it is endless.

Snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory if you must. I'm not going to.

 

[CabinetMaker]

How?
Being cast into the lake of fire IS the second death.
I've affirmed this...not denied it.

You deny it. You state quite plainly that people will only spend a relativly short period in the lake of fire until all their deceptions are burned away and then they get out. Jesus Himself tells them to depart from Him. The parables the Jesus used to teach about the Kingdom always included a reference to the weeds or tares being burned. The description of that burning is a burning to destroy them, not to refine them into wheat. Since Jesus was using these parables to describe the Kingdom, it is rather telling that Jesus describes the burning of the tares in such final terms.

The complete obliteration of evil....yet people burn for all eternity?

Thats why they burn for all eternity, they were/are evil.

Man...I don't know what it's going to take to cause you to open your eyes and see what it is that you are saying and how ludicrous it is.

I have told you what it will take. SHow me the verse where Jesus says that the lake of fire gives up its prisoners and I'll renounce eternal punishment. It must be said by Jesus in the same way that Matthew 25 was spoken by Jesus. Thats all you have to do and I will believe that you are right. Its a high standrd of proof but it was set by Jesus, not me.

Then death IS victorious and they are NOT in subjection to CHRIST. Death holds them captive, and does so for all eternity.

Of course they are subject to Jesus. It is He that will judge them because, all in all, we are all subject to Him whether we believe it or not. As our King of kings, it is Jesus's right to judge us all and He will as described in Matthew 25.

This is what happens when you make something "aionion" eternal when the Bible never says it is endless.

Duration is meaningless. You can point to no verse that says anybody gets out of the lake of fire. Its not there. Prove me wrong if you can. Second, there is nothing in the Bible about what happens at the end of your age-during of the lake of fire. Revelations talks about the FINAL battle between God and Satan. Satan is utterly defeated. He is defeated when he is cast into the lake of fire with all of his servents and those judged by Jesus. Again, you cannot point to a single verse that says gets out of the lake of fire as a new and improved angle. Its not there. Prove me wrong if you can.

Snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory if you must. I'm not going to.

So you will continue to beileve a false gosple based entierly upon the translation of a single word you disagree with and a single verse that ends with all in all.

 

[logos_x]

So you will continue to beileve a false gosple based entierly upon the translation of a single word you disagree with

...as will YOU, apparently. :think:

and a single verse that ends with all in all.

Nope.

Its far far more than a single verse of scripture.

Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world
Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all
1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved.
1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth
1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time
Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will
1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world
Col 1:16 In Him all were created
Rm 5:15-21 through Adam all condemned, through Christ all live
1Cor 15:22 Through Adam all die, through Christ all live
Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times
Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord; 1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by the Holy Spirit
Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved
Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all things
Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people
Heb 8:11,12 All will know God
Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come
Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all
Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty of the sons of God
Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God
1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God
Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy
Rev 15:4 All nations worship when God's judgments are seen
Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all all
Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things
Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God
1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all
Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new
Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live
Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth
1 Cor 3:15 saved, so as by fire
Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire
Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world
2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all
Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father
Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things
Jn 3:35 All has been given into Jesus' hands
Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him
Jn 13:35 The Father gave Him all things
1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all
Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed
Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure
Gen 18:18 All families of the earth will be blessed
Dan 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth
Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God
Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return
Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations
Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive
Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts
Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps
Prv 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands
La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever
Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord's house
Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him
Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified
Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God
Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God
Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things
Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored
Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored
Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him
Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him
Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him
Ps 145:9 He is good to all
Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works
Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall
Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him
Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people
Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire
Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him
Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless the Father draws them
Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things
​

It is, quite literally, everywhere in the Word of God! These are just a few of them.

Now...the issue is whether you think that single word is meant to undo all of this. By making it eternal, unending, everlasting and forever and ever...death NEVER is defeated and is victorious...and undoes the salvation of God.

I believe the opposite is true.

Amazing, isn't it?...that making an aion or aions endless can have such a far reaching effect in causing so much misunderstanding...a misunderstanding that is cleared up completely when you let the words used by God in the Greek and Hebrew mean what they really mean.

 

[CabinetMaker]

...as will YOU, apparently. :think:




Nope.

Its far far more than a single verse of scripture.

Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world
Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all
1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved.
1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth
1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time
Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will
1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world
Col 1:16 In Him all were created
Rm 5:15-21 through Adam all condemned, through Christ all live
1Cor 15:22 Through Adam all die, through Christ all live
Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times
Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord; 1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by the Holy Spirit
Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved
Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all things
Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people
Heb 8:11,12 All will know God
Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come
Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all
Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty of the sons of God
Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God
1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God
Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy
Rev 15:4 All nations worship when God's judgments are seen
Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all all
Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things
Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God
1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all
Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new
Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live
Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth
1 Cor 3:15 saved, so as by fire
Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire
Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world
2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all
Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father
Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things
Jn 3:35 All has been given into Jesus' hands
Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him
Jn 13:35 The Father gave Him all things
1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all
Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed
Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure
Gen 18:18 All families of the earth will be blessed
Dan 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth
Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God
Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return
Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations
Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive
Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts
Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps
Prv 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands
La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever
Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord's house
Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him
Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified
Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God
Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God
Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things
Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored
Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored
Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him
Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him
Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him
Ps 145:9 He is good to all
Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works
Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall
Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him
Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people
Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire
Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him
Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless the Father draws them
Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things
​

It is, quite literally, everywhere in the Word of God! These are just a few of them.

Now...the issue is whether you think that single word is meant to undo all of this. By making it eternal, unending, everlasting and forever and ever...death NEVER is defeated and is victorious...and undoes the salvation of God.

I believe the opposite is true.

Amazing, isn't it?...that making an aion or aions endless can have such a far reaching effect in causing so much misunderstanding...a misunderstanding that is cleared up completely when you let the words used by God in the Greek and Hebrew mean what they really mean.

But where is the verse, spoken by Chrsit, that says His final judgement, as described in Matthew, is not final after all. All the verses speakof salvation being available to all men here on Earth. You still have not given me a single verse where Jesus says the second death is not final.

Do you even fear God?
[qyote=NIV]
1 Peter 2:17
Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.[/quote]

 

[logos_x]

But where is the verse, spoken by Chrsit, that says His final judgement, as described in Matthew, is not final after all. All the verses speakof salvation being available to all men here on Earth. You still have not given me a single verse where Jesus says the second death is not final.

Do you even fear God?
[qyote=NIV]
1 Peter 2:17
Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

Of course I fear God.

You are refering to Matthew 25:46 I take it.

46Rotherham: And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.

46Diaglott: And shall go away these into a cutting-off age-lasting; the and just ones into life age-lasting.

46Twenty: And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'"

46Weymouth: "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages

46Youngs Literal: "And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'​

These versions respect the words used in the translation. They impose no meaning upon the words used.

I've already shared what many scholars have said concerning the Greek word "aionion".
It is "pertaining to an aion or aions"...and it is a QUALITATIVE word, not one that is quantitative...in other words it isn't even meant to refer to duration at all...but more properly the SOURCE of the punishment or the life. It is not in reference to a mathematical something that is infinite and never ends...rather in reference to whence the punishment or the life comes.

So...even if you look at it as "eternal", it means FROM eternity...not lasting through it.

Are these important considerations? Well, yes they are if you are interested in what Christ was REALLY saying.

As long as Greek was the prevailing language of the Church...the majority did NOT believe in "eternal" punishment. They believed in judgements with purpose that were not an end in themselves.

Today, the opposite is true...and this soley because we think that "aionion" is a quantity that speaks of the DURATION of a "final" judgement. But that is not the case at all in the Greek...it is a consequence of the way things were translated coupled with the change of the meanings of the ENGLISH language over time. Today, we view death as the beginning of "eternity"...but think about this...how could that be?

Review my opening post in the Battle Royale where I address this...http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1282929&postcount=5

 

[Ecumenicist]

Correct me if I'm wrong CM, but it seems that you are trying to make the point that without
eternal torment, there would be no reason to fear God?

I'm curious why the idea of hell as a "potentially painful, purgative process, used to bring about
healing" wouldn't warrant any fear?

 

[Nineveh]

Dave,
You seem to keep wanting to teach yet you know very little. Perhaps you should endeavor to learn the milk before you try tearing into the meat.

 

[Aimiel]

Dave,
You seem to keep wanting to teach yet you know very little. Perhaps you should endeavor to learn the milk before you try tearing into the meat.

Whenever I read posts by Red77, Logos_X or Dave, I'm often remined of this verse...

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

[Aimiel]

Correct me if I'm wrong CM, but it seems that you are trying to make the point that without
eternal torment, there would be no reason to fear God?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that Jesus taught us Whom we should fear, and what punishment awaited those who aren't in a relationship with Him.

I'm curious why the idea of hell as a "potentially painful, purgative process, used to bring about healing" wouldn't warrant any fear?

Sounds like you're describing a hospital. Though I don't want to go to one, I would never suggest to someone that they should cut off their hand to keep from going to one. :think:

 

[PKevman]

Whenever I read posts by Red77, Logos_X or Dave, I'm often remined of this verse...

Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

The sad thing is how people will stubbornly hold onto false ideas even when they have been exposed to the light of the truth. You can only debate something so far, after which the arguments just begin repeating and the conversation becomes unproductive.

 

[red77]

The sad thing is how people will stubbornly hold onto false ideas even when they have been exposed to the light of the truth. You can only debate something so far, after which the arguments just begin repeating and the conversation becomes unproductive.

Presumably the conversation being unproductive because all those who believe that God can restore so much more of his own creation havent abandoned their belief.....
They arent likely to, most have already been in the belief system that God would torment people for ever and saw the light that he actually wouldnt, there is no 'light of truth' in the doctrine of ET, just hopeless pain, despair and untold misery....

 

[logos_x]

Presumably the conversation being unproductive because all those who believe that God can restore so much more of his own creation havent abandoned their belief.....
They arent likely to, most have already been in the belief system that God would torment people for ever and saw the light that he actually wouldnt, there is no 'light of truth' in the doctrine of ET, just hopeless pain, despair and untold misery....

Well said, red77!

 

[Aimiel]

The sad thing is how people will stubbornly hold onto false ideas even when they have been exposed to the light of the truth. You can only debate something so far, after which the arguments just begin repeating and the conversation becomes unproductive.

Those who choose to shall remain ignorant, I always say. They love the darkness, because they don't want their evil deeds exposed. They don't want to understand or explain the reasons for their beliefs, they simply want to force others to accept their 'truth' as The Gospel.

 

[logos_x]

Those who choose to shall remain ignorant, I always say. They love the darkness, because they don't want their evil deeds exposed. They don't want to understand or explain the reasons for their beliefs, they simply want to force others to accept their 'truth' as The Gospel.

Well..that's what I think of when I see the posts of those that cling to eternal torment like it's a necessary belief that validates the entire Gospel, and never considering how false it is at nearly every point.

 

[Aimiel]

Well..that's what I think of when I see the posts of those that cling to eternal torment like it's a necessary belief that validates the entire Gospel, and never considering how false it is at nearly every point.

Obviously your perceptions are all fouled up, beyond that which your understanding can grasp. I have yet to see any of you (universalists) bring a single convincing argument to the table other than your own stubborness and ignorance. Because one has a 'picture' of God in their mind and then bows down to their own understanding of that picture doesn't make that picture or your understanding into God, it merely is worship of a false god that you've imagined or come to lean upon.

It isn't that eternal torment validates The Gospel, but that The Gospel makes it quite clear that it is the end of those who reject The Lord. Please stop rejecting Him.