BRXII Battle talk

[Nineveh]

logos,
I guess you are going to agree with dave at balder's expense. How tragic. One more tear to be wiped away.

 

[Balder]

I wasn't in the Body until I repented, balder. I know you may want to cling to dave's false hope, but he's lying to you.

I am not holding on to anything Dave is promising me. If I believed Christianity was the ultimate truth, and a superior "window" on reality and the nature of the hereafter than any other tradition, I would still be a Christian.

But back to the point: being in the Body is not what we're talking about. Being in the body is part of the transformation that happened once you repented. But the love and forgiveness were offered first.

 

[Nineveh]

I am not holding on to anything Dave is promising me. If I believed Christianity was the ultimate truth, and a superior "window" on reality and the nature of the hereafter than any other tradition, I would still be a Christian.

Your witness is you left a denom.

But back to the point: being in the Body is not what we're talking about. Being in the body is part of the transformation that happened once you repented.

This supports your witness of leaving a denom rather than Christ. Being in the Body is being saved.

But the love and forgiveness were offered first.

Just as it is to everyone. But if you don't want it Christ is not going to force it on you. While you say you don't believe dave's false hope, you keep preaching it. Surely you know John speaks against this belief.

 

[Balder]

Nineveh, leaving myself aside here, I think this discussion began with our disagreement whether it makes sense, or is effective, to offer forgiveness and love without it being asked for first. I think I have made it abundantly clear that this is exactly what God did, according to the Christian story.

 

[Nineveh]

Nineveh, leaving myself aside here, I think this discussion began with our disagreement whether it makes sense, or is effective, to offer forgiveness and love without it being asked for first. I think I have made it abundantly clear that this is exactly what God did, according to the Christian story.

God offeres forgiveness to those who ask. Of course it's there waiting, but God doesn't force it on folks who don't want it. I am at a loss to think of God granting forgivenss before it's asked for. All except one instance when gentile pagans had no clue they were putting the Son of God to death. It's hard to build a theology from that one instance when the whole Bible is about men's rebellion towards God and His desire for us to repent.

 

[PKevman]

Jesus:"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3,5)

Acts 17:30: Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

When Nineveh speaks about repentance she is saying what the Lord wants her to say. Repent and turn from these wicked doctrines!

 

[logos_x]

logos,
I guess you are going to agree with dave at balder's expense. How tragic. One more tear to be wiped away.

Nin,

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "agree[ing] with Dave at Balder's expense".

What I will say is that a belief in eternal torment is not a requirement for being a Christian, which I think by now Balder must realize.

So...if you mean that I should acquiesce to the doctrine of eternal torment in order to validate it for Balder's benefit, I think that would be an odd thing to do...since Balder expressed that one of the reasons he decided to dispense with the Christian religious system was because of that doctrine. If anything, I've showed that the doctrine of inevitable unending misery to be questionable, and that belief in it isn't necessary at all, in fact the belief wasn't held in early christian belief as much as you would like people to believe, and was not taught by the majority of theological schools, the ones that were based upon the Greek language.

Balder is smart enough to make his own decisions about what the Bible says and compare what we are saying to the scriptures.

 

[Solaris]

Why do I need to do the work for you? If you aren't willing to invest enough time to look into it, then why ask me to do it for you? I could post the verses, but you know what, you should make an effort to see if it be so. It would be relatively simple to search for the answer. Biblegateway.com or another such website would be a good place to look.

My guess would be you already know the verses that I am speaking about but want to have something to argue about. Is it your honest assertment that you haven't read verses that talk about "weeping and gnashing of teeth"?

yes, I do know of the verses of which you speak, but as I suspected there is no mention of the lake of fire in any of them, four references in Matthew and one in Luke. Why do you think that these verses apply to the lake of fire?

 

[Nineveh]

Nin,

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "agree[ing] with Dave at Balder's expense".

Balder bears the fruits of the Spirit, evidence that Christ works within him.

No what YOU fail to see is I never said that all are children of God when this happens.

Dave is saying balder right now has Christ. Are you going to correct dave?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Does God grant repentance to those who don't repent?

Repentence isn't something that is granted, Pastor. Its something people do. Its
turning around. Its part of that "free will" thing.

Repentence opens our eyes to God's Grace, which was demonstrated through
Christ's sacrifice.

God waits patiently for us to turn back towards God's Self.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Dave is saying balder right now has Christ. Are you going to correct dave?

Christ works within Balder, whether he recognizes it or not. Christ works through many
people, whether they recognize it or not.

 

[Nineveh]

Christ works within Balder, whether he recognizes it or not. Christ works through many
people, whether they recognize it or not.

Christ promises He stands at the door and knocks, He doesn't promise to reside with those who reject him.

Logos... where are you?

 

[Morpheus]

You are absolutely right! God did everything to save me, and you too

The thing is, it wasn't until I admitted my guilt and humbled myself in repentance before God that He baptised me into His Body. "...confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

Unil that point, I sounded much like you and dave.

Are you trying to say that you have reached some higher level of enlightenment and that anyone who disagrees with your point of view is somehow inferior, or that they are somehow not saved like you?

 

[Nineveh]

Are you trying to say that you have reached some higher level of enlightenment and that anyone who disagrees with your point of view is somehow inferior, or that they are somehow not saved like you?

What I said was, I believed like balder and dave until I was saved.

Are you of the belief balder is saved?

As for dave, his witness is accepting a spirit who confirmed for him there are indeed birds in heaven. I won't stand in judgement where his salvation is concerned, however I will stand against his errors.

 

[Balder]

While you say you don't believe dave's false hope, you keep preaching it. Surely you know John speaks against this belief.

I want to be clear about this. What I meant was, my own relationship to Christianity and my own beliefs and concerns about my "spiritual condition" are not dependent on anyone here. I left Christianity and eventually became Buddhist before ever coming to TOL.

However, I do believe what Dave and Logos and others on this thread believe: eternal torment is not in anyone's future. As I've said before, Buddhism does acknowledge the existence of hell, but it is not permanent, and it is not inescapable. It is a condition of suffering brought about by temporal causes and conditions (karma), but no one will be forced arbitrarily (and malevolently) to remain in that condition forever.

 

[Nineveh]

I want to be clear about this. What I meant was, my own relationship to Christianity

I wanted to point out again, just to keep things clear, it's Christianity you are talking about, not Christ.

and my own beliefs and concerns about my "spiritual condition" are not dependent on anyone here. I left Christianity and eventually became Buddhist before ever coming to TOL.

Yes, I understand you left a denomination.

However, I do believe what Dave and Logos and others on this thread believe: eternal torment is not in anyone's future. As I've said before, Buddhism does acknowledge the existence of hell, but it is not permanent, and it is not inescapable. It is a condition of suffering brought about by temporal causes and conditions (karma), but no one will be forced arbitrarily (and malevolently) to remain in that condition forever.

Their ideas obviously agree more with buddhism than the Bible. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[logos_x]

Christ promises He stands at the door and knocks, He doesn't promise to reside with those who reject him.

Logos... where are you?

I'm right here.

And yes...I'll have to say agree with you...but I also agree with dave and balder.
Where I disagree with your approach to this is you seem to believe that dave and balder have rejected Christ, whereas I see that as untrue, what has been rejected is a religious system that names the name of Christ...but is the product of an apostate church.

Part of that apostate religious system says that God is just fine with billions of people burning, literally, forever and ever...in fact He is "too much of a gentleman to interfere with that outcome". He doesn't save sinners, He saves people who are wise enough to save themselves. They are not saved though their works...but are saved by their actions. They are saved by Grace....but grace is only purchased by proper response. We are saved through faith...but its faith in something that isn't true until you have faith to make it so.
The doublespeak is rampant in this apostate system.

Nin, think back to when you were saved. You believed the Gospel not to make it so, but because it IS so. Jesus died for all mankind. This is true. When you believe this fact, the effect is literally life changing. You probably didn't know too much about theology then...you were too caught up in the experience of Christ and you weren't too concerned with what the church you were in was teaching and it's implications.

At least, that is the way it was for me.

Salvation is in Christ, and Him alone...not in a certain fan club that names His name but teachs something contrary to what and who He is. People reject church doctrines all the time...it is not the same thing as rejecting Christ.

Many things have been "reformed" through the years...the Lord is leading His people out of an apostate religious system when these false dogmas are exposed and the truth is seen. This doctrine of eternal misery is one of those things that is currently being visited...and like the reformation of "salvation by Grace through faith" was resisted in the days of Martin Luther by those in the church...so too the idea of purpose in Gods Judgements that are in line with His goals of saving all men is severely resisted by those who believe in eternal torment as the only thing a Christian should believe.

The doctrine of eternal torment is the reason most people who reject the message of the church find it so nonsensical to begin with. It causes more alienisation than reconciliation.
It was responsible for making more atheists than christians.

The reasons for this should be obvious by now.

 

[Balder]

Nineveh, I've said before that I never rejected Jesus. I did tell God, once, in a prayer, that I was going to turn my back on all the countless stories about Him, out of a desire to meet with Him more directly, unmediated by culture and human limitations.

 

[Nineveh]

I'm right here.

Finally

And yes...I'll have to say agree with you...but I also agree with dave and balder.
Where I disagree with your approach to this is you seem to believe that dave and balder have rejected Christ, whereas I see that as untrue, what has been rejected is a religious system that names the name of Christ...but is the product of an apostate church.

Logos, you can not agree with both dave and me on this. Either balder does have Christ or he does not. According to you not ALL are children of God. Dave says balder is. Is dave lying to balder on this point or not?

 

[logos_x]

Finally



Logos, you can not agree with both dave and me on this. Either balder does have Christ or he does not. According to you not ALL are children of God. Dave says balder is. Is dave lying to balder on this point or not?

Dave is not lying to Balder on this. Balder rejected the teachings of an apostate religious system while being a christian.

That is not the same as rejecting Christ.