boycott the NFL

T

Truster

New member
nikolai_42 said:
My comment has to do with the general direction of things as evidenced by what is happening in the NFL. What was supposed to be a protest over killings that were considered unjustified (cops killing black men) became a larger issue by dragging the whole country into something that should have gone away a long time ago. But it is kept alive by political opportunists who know they can maintain influence as long as there is a crisis. So a generation is being taught that America is evil at the same time the individual is replacing the country as an object of sovereign esteem. In days gone by, patriotic symbols provoked love of country because it was also recognized (as indicated in founding documents) that our very rights derive from our Creator. It wasn't an idolatrous love. For years, Presidents declared days of fasting and prayer and seeking repentance for the country - there was an honest recognition that liberty and safety came (ultimately) from God. The country was far from perfect, but her blessings were seen to derive from above. Once the Almighty is removed from the equation, the individual fills in the hole. The nation that forgets God (not merely the nation that sins) is turned into hell. Now the sins of her past are being used as an excuse to deny all the blessings of liberty because many do not want to acknowledge Who provided them. So the individual has to replace the sovereign nation. That is the spirit at work now.

Remember, even Daniel gave honor to the king that held him captive :

Then was king Belshazzar greatly troubled, and his countenance was changed in him, and his lords were astonied.
Now the queen by reason of the words of the king and his lords came into the banquet house: and the queen spake and said, O king, live for ever: let not thy thoughts trouble thee, nor let thy countenance be changed:
Daniel 5:9-10

Then said these men, We shall not find any occasion against this Daniel, except we find it against him concerning the law of his God.
Then these presidents and princes assembled together to the king, and said thus unto him, King Darius, live for ever.
Daniel 6:5-6

Then said Daniel unto the king, O king, live for ever.
Daniel 6:21

Daniel did exactly what others did in honoring the king. And there is nowhere where I see him being rebuked for idolatry. And he could have been if scripture is read a certain way :

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
Deuteronomy 32:39-40

Idolatry is in the heart. Those that bless God for all that He has bestowed on them are not being idolatrous when they honor the flag, the country, the President.
Click to expand...

You try and make a case for sin and for sinners you obviously succeed, but for the regenerate you fail.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Truster said:
If you want to take what Daniel said to the king and use it as a justification for idolatry that is your choice.
Click to expand...

Did Daniel commit idolatry by what he said? If not, why not? Can a person not love their country without loving the Almighty as He requires? Doesn't the fact that we are to give honor and reverence to others beyond God Himself indicate that there are various objects of love pleasing to Him (not just Him directly)?
 
T

Truster

New member
All your religion is in vain if you practise idolatry. Using scripture to justify the sin just makes it worse. And undoubtedly you pass it on to your children and so the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons.

I recollect we have had similar exchanges about idolatry before and as usual you are blind to the spiritual
identification of the idols and your service to them.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Truster said:
All your religion is in vain if you practise idolatry. Using scripture to justify the sin just makes it worse. And undoubtedly you pass it on to your children and so the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons.

I recollect we have had similar exchanges about idolatry before and as usual you are blind to the spiritual
identification of the idols and your service to them.
Click to expand...

But you still haven't even said what the idol is here. You have said I am guilty of idolatry but haven't said what that is or even given any explanation as to why this unnamed idol is, in fact, my idol. You also still haven't answered the question about Daniel - why what he said wasn't idolatry.
 
T

Truster

New member
nikolai_42 said:
But you still haven't even said what the idol is here. You have said I am guilty of idolatry but haven't said what that is or even given any explanation as to why this unnamed idol is, in fact, my idol. You also still haven't answered the question about Daniel - why what he said wasn't idolatry.
Click to expand...

Flag worship, national pride, professional sport and I'm just scratching the surface.

Everything Daniel spoke was purposed in the eternal will. Daniel was intended to prosper in captivity and as a regenerate man he was as wise as a serpent and as timid as a dove. Chapter 9 onwards gives the reason for this prosperity.
 
nikolai_42

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Truster said:
Flag worship, national pride, professional sport and I'm just scratching the surface.

Everything Daniel spoke was purposed in the eternal will. Daniel was intended to prosper in captivity and as a regenerate man he was as wise as a serpent and as timid as a dove. Chapter 9 onwards gives the reason for this prosperity.
Click to expand...

So how was Daniel saying "O King, live forever!" not idolatry by your definition?

The way I read your response, it simply has to be acceptable because Daniel did it and he was predestined to do be what he was and he was highly favoured. But that doesn't benefit anyone coming after him because if someone today had given honor to a world leader - or shown respect to a national emblem - you deem that idolatrous of itself. Again, idolatry is in the heart. One man can pay respect during the anthem and commit no sin. Another cannot follow the crowd in doing so because he cannot have variegated loves. I get that. But standing out of respect need not dictate (nor even reflect) the thoughts of the heart.
 
T

Truster

New member
nikolai_42 said:
So how was Daniel saying "O King, live forever!" not idolatry by your definition?

The way I read your response, it simply has to be acceptable because Daniel did it and he was predestined to do be what he was and he was highly favoured. But that doesn't benefit anyone coming after him because if someone today had given honor to a world leader - or shown respect to a national emblem - you deem that idolatrous of itself. Again, idolatry is in the heart. One man can pay respect during the anthem and commit no sin. Another cannot follow the crowd in doing so because he cannot have variegated loves. I get that. But standing out of respect need not dictate (nor even reflect) the thoughts of the heart.
Click to expand...


"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."
 
ClimateSanity

ClimateSanity

New member
nikolai_42 said:
John Lennon's dream is coming true right before our eyes. The individual in the ascendancy and those institutions which served to promote higher ideals being trounced. Who would have thought defending the need to honor the anthem and the flag (and all they stand for) would be considered divisive.
Click to expand...
You are another refreshing poster on here. Thank you for your contributions.
 
kmoney

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
nikolai_42 said:
John Lennon's dream is coming true right before our eyes. The individual in the ascendancy and those institutions which served to promote higher ideals being trounced. Who would have thought defending the need to honor the anthem and the flag (and all they stand for) would be considered divisive.
Click to expand...
You can attempt to defend the flag and anthem without doing it like Trump. The divisiveness is the way in which he did it. Defense of it doesn't require profane names and calls to have people fired.
 
kmoney

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
ClimateSanity said:
He is disrespecting those in the military with his form of protest. He is disrespecting those who died for our country. The flag and the anthem are symbols our country uses to honor our country and the people who have fought to give us what only this country can offer. We are or used to be the freeist country in the world. People sacrificed their lives so that it would remain that way. The very least we can do to respect our country and the people who died for it is by respecting it's flag and it's anthem. Kaepernick may be protesting unfair treatment of blacks but he should not disrespect our flag and anthem and as a result our military and fallen soldiers to do so.

Sent from my SM-G930V using TOL mobile app
Click to expand...

The flag is often used in military contexts but it isn't exclusively a military symbol. Neither is the anthem. If it was always supposed to be a symbol and honor for the military then why does the league do special events around Veterans Day? Maybe to you it's a symbol for the military but you don't own those symbols and other people want to use it for other purposes.


Also, Kapernick even modified his protest in an effort to be less disrespectful to the military. Originally he sat on the bench but after talking to someone in the military he started kneeling so there was some level of deference paid. Yet people are still upset. There is no necessary connection between these protests and the military and no need to feel offended.
 
ClimateSanity

ClimateSanity

New member
kmoney said:
The flag is often used in military contexts but it isn't exclusively a military symbol. Neither is the anthem. If it was always supposed to be a symbol and honor for the military then why does the league do special events around Veterans Day? Maybe to you it's a symbol for the military but you don't own those symbols and other people want to use it for other purposes.


Also, Kapernick even modified his protest in an effort to be less disrespectful to the military. Originally he sat on the bench but after talking to someone in the military he started kneeling so there was some level of deference paid. Yet people are still upset. There is no necessary connection between these protests and the military and no need to feel offended.
Click to expand...
Are you really this dense???? You still don't have a clue.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top