Before the Fall, did God refer to the earth's surface as part of heaven?
- Thread starter Bob Enyart
- Start date
Doc.. your sig is HUGE!!
Could you make it a tad smaller?
Could you make it a tad smaller?
In the words of Walt Brown... The canopy theory doesn't hold water.
Okay, so how long were the waters recessed when the dove came back with a fresh olive branch?
7 days.
Ge:8:9: But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.
Ge:8:10: And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;
Ge:8:11: And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.
Ge:8:12: And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more.
So Genesis 8:9 disproves your belief that the flood didn't cover the whole face of the earth. Not to mention, if it didn't, then the dove would have found something the first time, just by going beyond the waters. However, it found the olive leaf where the waters had been. Showing that it was able to grow.:think:
Whoa! Did the dove fly over the entire earth? Were there witnesses as to where the dove flew? Did the dove fly to the same locations on all trips? How far would "beyond the waters" be? The Word says the dove came back from the first trip with nothing. 7 days later the dove comes back with a fresh olive leaf. Where does it say the dove found the olive leaf "where the waters had been?" I'll agree that the flood looked fairly worldwide to Noah.
If you believe the flood covered the entire earth and destroyed everything on it, then you must also accept that God re-created at least one olive tree within 7 days so the dove could get a fresh olive leaf. Or you must believe that God preserved at least one olive tree despite the flood.
The ocean; the global flood; and the mythical seven days
The ocean; the global flood; and the mythical seven days
Jefferson: Hey Bob, "what do you think the words 'the waters above the firmament' refer to?"
Jeff, the ocean. The firmament is the crust of the earth, which divided the subterranean waters about ten miles below from the surface waters. In the flood, the fountains of the great deep broke open, and those waters rushed up into the atmosphere, and came back down as rain. The rain didn't come from a vapor canopy, which I do not believe ever existed. But after 40 days, there was so much water on the earth, that the waters from below could not escape up into the atmosphere to come back down as more rain. Instead, the subterranean waters continued to gush to the surface and they caused the floodwaters to rise for another 110 days. The waters did not begin to decrease until the 150th day, and it took another four months of subsiding before the mountaintops were seen.
And as for Noah's flood not being global, only people with an agenda could deny the obvious and irrefragable biblical presentation of a global, not local, Flood. All the human race died except for eight on the Ark as per Moses and Peter (and Christ who said the flood "destroyed them all"); the mountains were covered; the Ark came to rest in the mountains of Ararat, with many peaks higher than our 14,000-footers in Colorado and the entire region being as high above sea level as Denver; Noah had to bring the animals, a male and female "to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth" (and there was only one continent, Pangea, which would have allowed animals free migration and survival from a local flood); thus God promised "the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all felsh," a broken promise if this was a local flood.
As for the argument that a global flood scenario requires an olive tree to grow in seven days, this results from taking a phrase in the text woodenly literally, that "the dove found no resting place for the sole of her foot." That does not mean she literally could not find even just a few square inches of dry land anywhere to set her feet upon.
Rather, it means that there was not enough dry land to support her survival. Stephen used this Hebrew figure of speech saying that God gave Abraham no inheritance (land), "not even enough to set his foot on, (Acts 7:5). Stephen wasn't being immoderate toward God; he was not begrudgingly saying that God hadn't even given Abraham thirty square inches of real estate; rather, his point was that God hadn't given Abraham land that he could settle his household on. Regarding the flood and the dove, the tops of the mountains were seen on the first calendar day of "the tenth month." Forty-seven days later Noah sent out the dove (Gen. 8:6, 10 "at the end of forty days," and "yet another seven days"). She could have alighted anywhere on the mountains that had been drying out for six weeks, but the ecosystem still could not support her. (She could have even rested her foot on the roof of the ark itself, if we're going to be gopher-woodenly literal, but she couldn't survive there either.) But one week later, not in seven days, but in a reasonable fifty-four days after Noah first saw the mountaintops, the dove brought back a leaf. That answers the misnomer of a seven-day miracle period used in argument against a global flood. And then, a week later, the dove’s survival instinct allowed her to remain outdoors, permanently.
May God bless you, -Bob Enyart
The ocean; the global flood; and the mythical seven days
Jefferson: Hey Bob, "what do you think the words 'the waters above the firmament' refer to?"
Jeff, the ocean. The firmament is the crust of the earth, which divided the subterranean waters about ten miles below from the surface waters. In the flood, the fountains of the great deep broke open, and those waters rushed up into the atmosphere, and came back down as rain. The rain didn't come from a vapor canopy, which I do not believe ever existed. But after 40 days, there was so much water on the earth, that the waters from below could not escape up into the atmosphere to come back down as more rain. Instead, the subterranean waters continued to gush to the surface and they caused the floodwaters to rise for another 110 days. The waters did not begin to decrease until the 150th day, and it took another four months of subsiding before the mountaintops were seen.
And as for Noah's flood not being global, only people with an agenda could deny the obvious and irrefragable biblical presentation of a global, not local, Flood. All the human race died except for eight on the Ark as per Moses and Peter (and Christ who said the flood "destroyed them all"); the mountains were covered; the Ark came to rest in the mountains of Ararat, with many peaks higher than our 14,000-footers in Colorado and the entire region being as high above sea level as Denver; Noah had to bring the animals, a male and female "to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth" (and there was only one continent, Pangea, which would have allowed animals free migration and survival from a local flood); thus God promised "the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all felsh," a broken promise if this was a local flood.
As for the argument that a global flood scenario requires an olive tree to grow in seven days, this results from taking a phrase in the text woodenly literally, that "the dove found no resting place for the sole of her foot." That does not mean she literally could not find even just a few square inches of dry land anywhere to set her feet upon.
Rather, it means that there was not enough dry land to support her survival. Stephen used this Hebrew figure of speech saying that God gave Abraham no inheritance (land), "not even enough to set his foot on, (Acts 7:5). Stephen wasn't being immoderate toward God; he was not begrudgingly saying that God hadn't even given Abraham thirty square inches of real estate; rather, his point was that God hadn't given Abraham land that he could settle his household on. Regarding the flood and the dove, the tops of the mountains were seen on the first calendar day of "the tenth month." Forty-seven days later Noah sent out the dove (Gen. 8:6, 10 "at the end of forty days," and "yet another seven days"). She could have alighted anywhere on the mountains that had been drying out for six weeks, but the ecosystem still could not support her. (She could have even rested her foot on the roof of the ark itself, if we're going to be gopher-woodenly literal, but she couldn't survive there either.) But one week later, not in seven days, but in a reasonable fifty-four days after Noah first saw the mountaintops, the dove brought back a leaf. That answers the misnomer of a seven-day miracle period used in argument against a global flood. And then, a week later, the dove’s survival instinct allowed her to remain outdoors, permanently.
May God bless you, -Bob Enyart
Bob-
I enjoy your presentation of scripture. You seem to have a very secure grip on it, and a great understanding. I'm curious as to what you think God meant when He told Adam and Eve to replenish the earth. I'm sure you've seen what Jeff said about it, and my speculation. I'd like to know what you think. Also, since you're here, it's time for a new theme song.
I enjoy your presentation of scripture. You seem to have a very secure grip on it, and a great understanding. I'm curious as to what you think God meant when He told Adam and Eve to replenish the earth. I'm sure you've seen what Jeff said about it, and my speculation. I'd like to know what you think. Also, since you're here, it's time for a new theme song.
Then what do you think was the cause of antedeluvian human longevity? Christians have theorized it was due to a water canopy filtering out harmful ultraviolet rays from the sun. Additionally, the canopy supposedly would have created higher air pressure which would be a very healthy environment to live in. In 1932 Dr. Otto Warburg won the Nobel Prize in Medicine for discovering that cancer was anaerobic. That is to say that cancer is caused by a lack of free oxygen in the body and therefore, whatever causes this to occur is the cause of all cancers and the cause of disease - the growth of abnormal cells. These abnormal cells can not live in a high oxygen environment.
Is it really just a coincidence that the gradual corrupting of the human DNA didn't affect longevity until after the flood?
Additionally, I've heard that many dinasaurs could not survive today with our current air pressure because their nostrils were only about the size of a horses nostrils but their lungs were much larger. But if they lived with higher air pressure around them, then it would be no problem. This would also answer why God made some birds that cannot fly. The answer is they did used to be able to fly in the earth's formerly high-pressure atmosphere.
Finally, I don't see how my view destroys Walt Brown's view. Couldn't there be a water canopy and also waters under the crust of the earth?
P.S. I'd really like to discuss an alternate "triggering mechanism" for the flood with you sometime. But that's a different topic.
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Those who have QuickTime installed on their computer can see a 5-minute animation by Dr. Walt Brown of his Hydroplate Theory at
http://mamouth.activnetworks.net/samizdat.qc.ca/fontaine.mov
http://mamouth.activnetworks.net/samizdat.qc.ca/fontaine.mov
There's a very good reason that newer translations use the word fill instead of replenish in Genesis 1:28: The Hebrew word means "to fill." (see for yourself by clicking the word "replenish" from this link.
Not that "replenish" is a mistranslation; "replenish" can be used to mean "fill" or "fill again." But the former usage has become much less common than it was in 1611. We should be aware as we study from KJV that the meanings of some English words have changed over the past 400 years.
Not that "replenish" is a mistranslation; "replenish" can be used to mean "fill" or "fill again." But the former usage has become much less common than it was in 1611. We should be aware as we study from KJV that the meanings of some English words have changed over the past 400 years.
- re·plen·ish
Pronunciation: ri-'ple-nish
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English replenisshen, from Middle French repleniss-, stem of replenir to fill, from Old French, from re- + plein full, from Latin plenus -- more at FULL
transitive senses
1 a : to fill with persons or animals : STOCK b archaic : to supply fully : PERFECT c : to fill with inspiration or power : NOURISH
2 a : to fill or build up again <replenished his glass> b : to make good : REPLACE
intransitive senses : to become full : fill up again
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Re: The ocean; the global flood; and the mythical seven days
Re: The ocean; the global flood; and the mythical seven days
Alrighty! I did some more research which took a couple of internet days. Approach used, "What if Pastor Bob is right about this?" I have a mid-Atlantic Ridge, sizeable geysers, enough water, collapsing ocean floor. What I can put together is that you are, most likely, correct about the flood of Noah's time being worldwide. Got the olive tree problem solved also. Had to graze (no pun intended) through a bunch of horticulture to figure it out. Also did some anthropology, etc.
I took the "woodenly literal" (LOL) tack using scripture as the "agenda" (LOL also) standard.
Also took a look at the Vapor Canopy thingy which doesn't seem to make physical sense. (Yup. Did some physics and math along the way.) Bless this computer which did all of the number crunching.
Oops! Almost forgot ... God Bless You Too, Pastor Bob!
Re: The ocean; the global flood; and the mythical seven days
Thanks for the last part. I can always use that!
Alrighty! I did some more research which took a couple of internet days. Approach used, "What if Pastor Bob is right about this?" I have a mid-Atlantic Ridge, sizeable geysers, enough water, collapsing ocean floor. What I can put together is that you are, most likely, correct about the flood of Noah's time being worldwide. Got the olive tree problem solved also. Had to graze (no pun intended) through a bunch of horticulture to figure it out. Also did some anthropology, etc.
I took the "woodenly literal" (LOL) tack using scripture as the "agenda" (LOL also) standard.
Also took a look at the Vapor Canopy thingy which doesn't seem to make physical sense. (Yup. Did some physics and math along the way.) Bless this computer which did all of the number crunching.
Oops! Almost forgot ... God Bless You Too, Pastor Bob!
There may be another possibility.
There is an alternate theory regarding human longevity that involves the accumulation of mutations during a person's lifetime (I refer the reader to Dr. Menton's exposition of this at answersingenesis).
This idea caused something to click in my brain, for I read about the problem being studied by NASA regarding shielding from cosmic rays during the proposed long human flight to Mars.
It turns out that the magnetic field of the Earth normally shields us from much of the harmful cosmic rays from outer space.
Guess what? It is now admitted by mainline science that since the 1800's the Earth's magnetic field has decreased by about 10%.
Putting two and two together .....
Added Later:
Earth's Magnetic Field Weakens 10 Percent
By Andrew Bridges
Associated Press
posted: 03:25 pm ET
12 December 2003
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- The strength of the Earth's magnetic field has decreased 10 percent over the past 150 years, raising the remote possibility that it may collapse and later reverse, flipping the planet's poles for the first time in nearly a million years, scientists said Thursday.
At that rate of decline, the field could vanish altogether in 1,500 to 2,000 years, said Jeremy Bloxham of Harvard University.
http://space.com/scienceastronomy/earth_magnetic_031212.html
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God called the Firmament Heaven 2.0
God called the Firmament Heaven 2.0
Thanks to the great TOL input, I can now post an edited version of my original article. There’s still time to make comments before I send this to Walt Brown. Changes include addition of Paul’s third heaven, the sentence on gravity, and a light rewrite. Also, thanks Frank E for your kind words; and Jefferson, I think most of your questions have been answered so far by others.
May God bless you all. -Bob
Heaven on Earth
God called the Firmament Heaven
By Pastor Bob Enyart
At Denver Bible Church, we teach Dr. Walt Brown’s Hydroplate Theory as the best understanding of Noah’s Flood, geology and the relevant scriptures. On Day Two of creation, God formed the crust of the earth, the firmament, miles above a massive subterranean ocean. “Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament,” (Gen. 1:7). The global flood began when these “fountains of the great deep were broken up,” (Gen. 7:11). Dr. Brown’s book, In the Beginninghttp://kgov.com/store/detail/literature/beginning.html, demonstrates powerfully that the world’s major geologic features flow logically from these initial conditions. But some creationists who disagree point out that, “God called the firmament Heaven” (Gen. 1:8), claiming that this firmament must be either the atmosphere (Morris) or outer space (Humphreys).
However at DBC we show that, whether figurative or literal, the crust of the earth is the boundary between heaven and hell. Everything below the crust can be referred to as hell, the prison God had planned for any future unrepentant beings. “Hell from beneath is excited about you, to meet you at your coming” (Isa. 14:9, etc.). Everything above the crust can be referred to as heaven. Hence dozens of verses indicate that heaven also refers to the earth’s atmosphere as in “rain from heaven;” the “dew of heaven;” “birds of heaven;” “dust from the heaven;” city walls “fortified up to heaven;” smoke rises “to the midst of heaven;” “the heavens are shut” in drought; “frost of heaven;” “clouds of heaven;” “snow from heaven;” “hail from heaven;” and the east winds “blow in the heavens.” Thus even after the Fall, from Genesis and Job, through the Gospels, Acts and Revelation, the Bible continued to refer to the atmosphere, one molecule above the ground, as heaven.
“God called the firmament Heaven,” because the earth’s crust formed the border between heaven and the future hell. The firmament divided the waters of the earth (Gen. 1:2, 6) which even reserved the floodwaters of judgment below ground. And after the Fall earth permanently lost its heavenly designation, for apparently God will never fully replicate the first earth. Only two detailed Bible passages report on events prior to the Fall, the Genesis creation account and Isaiah’s record of Lucifer’s fall, and both of these passages refer to earth as heaven. Isaiah 14:12 describes “Lucifer” as “fallen from heaven,” yet Scripture places him on earth at the moment of his fall. “You were in Eden, the garden of God,” (Ezek. 28:13), and “you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven… I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,’” (Isa. 14:13 14), “yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit,” (Isa. 14:15). Even though he was on earth, Lucifer fell “from heaven,” because prior to the Fall, the surface of the earth was part of heaven’s realm. Notice that just as gravity pulls our physical flesh down toward the center of the earth, the Fall created the world system which relentlessly pulls our spiritual flesh, drawing us down toward the lowest depths until death, and then the believer’s released spirit soars upward to heaven, whereas the unbeliever’s unfettered spirit falls downward, the firmament no longer keeping him out of Hades, thus his soul plummets into hell. In the modern classic, Soul of Science, (1994, p. 38), Pearcey and Thaxton describe the view of Christian “medieval cosmology,” that “at the very center of the universe was Hell, then the earth, then (moving outward from the center) the progressively nobler spheres of the heavens.” Christians continue to affirm this hierarchy quoting Paul who was “caught up to the third heaven” (2 Cor 12:2), the first being the sky, the second is space, and the third God’s habitation. King David even seems to refer to the “earth” as “the foundations of heaven” (2 Sam. 22:8).
Moses used the word firmament nine times in the creation story. He intentionally distinguished the last four occurrences from the first four, all of which pivot around the central instance where God called the earth’s firmament Heaven. Each of the four in the second grouping (vv. 14, 15, 17, 20) is qualified separately by an exceptional repetition. The prepositional phrase “of the heavens” makes a distinction between the first firmament of the earth, and the second “firmament of the heavens,” so that the reader will not confuse this firmament of sky and space with the previous firmament of earth. Thus, readers alien to the notion of “heaven” on earth should nonetheless be able to separate the two firmaments, and understand God’s meaning. Now, millennia after the Fall, God’s own record of creation notwithstanding, sin has almost completely obscured the original perspective of the earth’s surface as “heaven.”
When man rebelled, earth became more like hell than heaven. So the Fall narrowed the spheres of heaven but only by a single molecule, which now begin at the atmosphere. Thus man’s habitation lost its heavenly designation. The Bible describes Hell as below, bounded by the firmament. However in the beginning “God called the firmament Heaven” because that’s where He placed Adam and Eve, above ground on the surface, in the heavens, in fellowship with Him, not in any other realm but in His kingdom, in heaven on earth.
© 2005 Bob Enyart, KGOV.com
God called the Firmament Heaven 2.0
Thanks to the great TOL input, I can now post an edited version of my original article. There’s still time to make comments before I send this to Walt Brown. Changes include addition of Paul’s third heaven, the sentence on gravity, and a light rewrite. Also, thanks Frank E for your kind words; and Jefferson, I think most of your questions have been answered so far by others.
May God bless you all. -Bob
Heaven on Earth
God called the Firmament Heaven
By Pastor Bob Enyart
At Denver Bible Church, we teach Dr. Walt Brown’s Hydroplate Theory as the best understanding of Noah’s Flood, geology and the relevant scriptures. On Day Two of creation, God formed the crust of the earth, the firmament, miles above a massive subterranean ocean. “Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament,” (Gen. 1:7). The global flood began when these “fountains of the great deep were broken up,” (Gen. 7:11). Dr. Brown’s book, In the Beginninghttp://kgov.com/store/detail/literature/beginning.html, demonstrates powerfully that the world’s major geologic features flow logically from these initial conditions. But some creationists who disagree point out that, “God called the firmament Heaven” (Gen. 1:8), claiming that this firmament must be either the atmosphere (Morris) or outer space (Humphreys).
However at DBC we show that, whether figurative or literal, the crust of the earth is the boundary between heaven and hell. Everything below the crust can be referred to as hell, the prison God had planned for any future unrepentant beings. “Hell from beneath is excited about you, to meet you at your coming” (Isa. 14:9, etc.). Everything above the crust can be referred to as heaven. Hence dozens of verses indicate that heaven also refers to the earth’s atmosphere as in “rain from heaven;” the “dew of heaven;” “birds of heaven;” “dust from the heaven;” city walls “fortified up to heaven;” smoke rises “to the midst of heaven;” “the heavens are shut” in drought; “frost of heaven;” “clouds of heaven;” “snow from heaven;” “hail from heaven;” and the east winds “blow in the heavens.” Thus even after the Fall, from Genesis and Job, through the Gospels, Acts and Revelation, the Bible continued to refer to the atmosphere, one molecule above the ground, as heaven.
“God called the firmament Heaven,” because the earth’s crust formed the border between heaven and the future hell. The firmament divided the waters of the earth (Gen. 1:2, 6) which even reserved the floodwaters of judgment below ground. And after the Fall earth permanently lost its heavenly designation, for apparently God will never fully replicate the first earth. Only two detailed Bible passages report on events prior to the Fall, the Genesis creation account and Isaiah’s record of Lucifer’s fall, and both of these passages refer to earth as heaven. Isaiah 14:12 describes “Lucifer” as “fallen from heaven,” yet Scripture places him on earth at the moment of his fall. “You were in Eden, the garden of God,” (Ezek. 28:13), and “you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven… I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,’” (Isa. 14:13 14), “yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit,” (Isa. 14:15). Even though he was on earth, Lucifer fell “from heaven,” because prior to the Fall, the surface of the earth was part of heaven’s realm. Notice that just as gravity pulls our physical flesh down toward the center of the earth, the Fall created the world system which relentlessly pulls our spiritual flesh, drawing us down toward the lowest depths until death, and then the believer’s released spirit soars upward to heaven, whereas the unbeliever’s unfettered spirit falls downward, the firmament no longer keeping him out of Hades, thus his soul plummets into hell. In the modern classic, Soul of Science, (1994, p. 38), Pearcey and Thaxton describe the view of Christian “medieval cosmology,” that “at the very center of the universe was Hell, then the earth, then (moving outward from the center) the progressively nobler spheres of the heavens.” Christians continue to affirm this hierarchy quoting Paul who was “caught up to the third heaven” (2 Cor 12:2), the first being the sky, the second is space, and the third God’s habitation. King David even seems to refer to the “earth” as “the foundations of heaven” (2 Sam. 22:8).
Moses used the word firmament nine times in the creation story. He intentionally distinguished the last four occurrences from the first four, all of which pivot around the central instance where God called the earth’s firmament Heaven. Each of the four in the second grouping (vv. 14, 15, 17, 20) is qualified separately by an exceptional repetition. The prepositional phrase “of the heavens” makes a distinction between the first firmament of the earth, and the second “firmament of the heavens,” so that the reader will not confuse this firmament of sky and space with the previous firmament of earth. Thus, readers alien to the notion of “heaven” on earth should nonetheless be able to separate the two firmaments, and understand God’s meaning. Now, millennia after the Fall, God’s own record of creation notwithstanding, sin has almost completely obscured the original perspective of the earth’s surface as “heaven.”
When man rebelled, earth became more like hell than heaven. So the Fall narrowed the spheres of heaven but only by a single molecule, which now begin at the atmosphere. Thus man’s habitation lost its heavenly designation. The Bible describes Hell as below, bounded by the firmament. However in the beginning “God called the firmament Heaven” because that’s where He placed Adam and Eve, above ground on the surface, in the heavens, in fellowship with Him, not in any other realm but in His kingdom, in heaven on earth.
© 2005 Bob Enyart, KGOV.com
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Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind:
Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up your loins like a man, I will question you, and you shall declare to me.
Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
Job 38:5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone
Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the heavenly beings shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 "Or who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb?—
Job 38:9 when I made the clouds its garment, and thick darkness its swaddling band,
Job 38:10 and prescribed bounds for it, and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11 and said, "Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stopped'?
Job 38:12 "Have you commanded the morning since your days began, and caused the dawn to know its place,
Job 38:13 so that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14 It is changed like clay under the seal, and it is dyed like a garment.
Job 38:15 Light is withheld from the wicked, and their uplifted arm is broken.
Job 38:16 "Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
Job 38:18 Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth? Declare, if you know all this.
Job 38:19 "Where is the way to the dwelling of light, and where is the place of darkness,
Job 38:20 that you may take it to its territory and that you may discern the paths to its home?
Job 38:21 Surely you know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!
Job 38:22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow, or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
Job 38:23 which I have reserved for the time of trouble, for the day of battle and war?
Job 38:24 What is the way to the place where the light is distributed, or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?
Job 38:25 "Who has cut a channel for the torrents of rain, and a way for the thunderbolt,
Job 38:26 to bring rain on a land where no one lives, on the desert, which is empty of human life,
Job 38:27 to satisfy the waste and desolate land, and to make the ground put forth grass?
Job 38:28 "Has the rain a father, or who has begotten the drops of dew?
Job 38:29 From whose womb did the ice come forth, and who has given birth to the hoarfrost of heaven?
Job 38:30 The waters become hard like stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
Job 38:31 "Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades, or loose the cords of Orion?
Job 38:32 Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season, or can you guide the Bear with its children?
Job 38:33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you establish their rule on the earth?
Job 38:34 "Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, so that a flood of waters may cover you?
Job 38:35 Can you send forth lightnings, so that they may go and say to you, "Here we are'?
Job 38:36 Who has put wisdom in the inward parts, or given understanding to the mind?
Job 38:37 Who has the wisdom to number the clouds? Or who can tilt the waterskins of the heavens...
I really, sincerly, don't think that the creation narrative in Genesis was intended to be encyclopedic in scope...and attempting to discover how God did things through it's presentation is pushing it's data way too far.
It contains enough to know WHO made it all...but not how HE did.
And, that should be enough...at least until God lets us see when its time to see.
Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up your loins like a man, I will question you, and you shall declare to me.
Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding.
Job 38:5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone
Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the heavenly beings shouted for joy?
Job 38:8 "Or who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb?—
Job 38:9 when I made the clouds its garment, and thick darkness its swaddling band,
Job 38:10 and prescribed bounds for it, and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11 and said, "Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stopped'?
Job 38:12 "Have you commanded the morning since your days began, and caused the dawn to know its place,
Job 38:13 so that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14 It is changed like clay under the seal, and it is dyed like a garment.
Job 38:15 Light is withheld from the wicked, and their uplifted arm is broken.
Job 38:16 "Have you entered into the springs of the sea, or walked in the recesses of the deep?
Job 38:17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
Job 38:18 Have you comprehended the expanse of the earth? Declare, if you know all this.
Job 38:19 "Where is the way to the dwelling of light, and where is the place of darkness,
Job 38:20 that you may take it to its territory and that you may discern the paths to its home?
Job 38:21 Surely you know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!
Job 38:22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow, or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
Job 38:23 which I have reserved for the time of trouble, for the day of battle and war?
Job 38:24 What is the way to the place where the light is distributed, or where the east wind is scattered upon the earth?
Job 38:25 "Who has cut a channel for the torrents of rain, and a way for the thunderbolt,
Job 38:26 to bring rain on a land where no one lives, on the desert, which is empty of human life,
Job 38:27 to satisfy the waste and desolate land, and to make the ground put forth grass?
Job 38:28 "Has the rain a father, or who has begotten the drops of dew?
Job 38:29 From whose womb did the ice come forth, and who has given birth to the hoarfrost of heaven?
Job 38:30 The waters become hard like stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
Job 38:31 "Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades, or loose the cords of Orion?
Job 38:32 Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season, or can you guide the Bear with its children?
Job 38:33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you establish their rule on the earth?
Job 38:34 "Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, so that a flood of waters may cover you?
Job 38:35 Can you send forth lightnings, so that they may go and say to you, "Here we are'?
Job 38:36 Who has put wisdom in the inward parts, or given understanding to the mind?
Job 38:37 Who has the wisdom to number the clouds? Or who can tilt the waterskins of the heavens...
I really, sincerly, don't think that the creation narrative in Genesis was intended to be encyclopedic in scope...and attempting to discover how God did things through it's presentation is pushing it's data way too far.
It contains enough to know WHO made it all...but not how HE did.
And, that should be enough...at least until God lets us see when its time to see.
Balder
New member
Bob,
That's a nicely written article, but it does seem like you're reaching a bit here. Many cultures of the day, including ones immediately surrounding that of the Biblical authors, held the sky itself to be a firm dome. I believe a more likely and reasonable view is that the Biblical authors were simply reflecting this worldview in their own writings.
Peace,
Balder
That's a nicely written article, but it does seem like you're reaching a bit here. Many cultures of the day, including ones immediately surrounding that of the Biblical authors, held the sky itself to be a firm dome. I believe a more likely and reasonable view is that the Biblical authors were simply reflecting this worldview in their own writings.
Peace,
Balder
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