Before the Fall, did God refer to the earth's surface as part of heaven?

Before the Fall, did God refer to the earth's surface as part of heaven?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 26.1%
  • Perhaps

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • I doubt it

    Votes: 1 4.3%
  • No

    Votes: 8 34.8%
  • I have no opinion

    Votes: 3 13.0%

  • Total voters
    23

Bob Enyart

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Heaven on Earth
God Called the Firmament Heaven


By Pastor Bob Enyart

At Denver Bible Church, we teach Dr. Walt Brown’s Hydroplate Theory as the best understanding of Noah’s Flood, geology and the relevant scriptures. On Day Two of creation, God formed the crust of the earth, the firmament, above a massive subterranean ocean of water miles underground. “Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament,” (Gen. 1:7). The global flood began when these “fountains of the great deep were broken up,” (Gen. 7:11). Dr. Brown’s book, In the Beginning, goes on to demonstrate powerfully that the world’s major geologic features flow logically from these initial conditions. But some creationists who disagree point out that, “God called the firmament Heaven” (Gen. 1:8), claiming that this firmament must be either the atmosphere (Morris) or outer space (Humphreys).

However at DBC we show that, whether figurative or literal, the crust of the earth is the boundary between heaven and hell. Everything below the crust can be referred to as hell, the prison God had planned for any future unrepentant beings, “Hell from beneath is excited about you, to meet you at your coming” (Isa. 14:9). Everything above the crust can be referred to as heaven. Thus dozens of verses indicate that heaven also refers to the earth’s atmosphere as in “rain from heaven;” the “dew of heaven;” city walls “fortified up to heaven;” Sinai “burned with fire to the midst of heaven;” “dust from the heaven;” drought means “the heavens are shut;” “birds of heaven;” “frost of heaven;” “clouds of heaven;” “snow from heaven;” and “hail from heaven.” So not only God’s throne room, but His entire realm, everything not under the earth’s crust He referred to as heaven, including Earth before the Fall.

Adam lived not underground, as a “worm” that “does not die,” but above ground, in heaven on earth. Since the earth’s crust formed the border between heaven and hell (with even the floodwaters of judgment held underground), therefore heaven began at the firmament, thus “God called the firmament Heaven.” After the Fall, earth permanently lost its designation as a part of heaven, and even the New Earth will differ greatly from God’s original heaven on earth. Thus we should expect the Bible to refer to earth as heaven only prior to the Fall. For afterward it became associated with the rebellion. Therefore while Isaiah 14:12 describes “Lucifer” as “fallen from heaven,” Scripture places him on earth at the moment of his fall. “You were in Eden, the garden of God,” (Ezek. 28:13), and “you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven… I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,’” (Isa. 14:13 14), “yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit,” (Isa. 14:15). Even though he was on earth, Lucifer fell “from heaven,” because prior to the Fall, the surface of the earth was still part of the realm of heaven. In the modern classic, Soul of Science, (1994, p. 38), Pearcey and Thaxton describe the view of Christian “medieval cosmology” which caught the spirit of God’s original nomenclature, that “at the very center of the universe was Hell, then the earth, then (moving outward from the center) the progressively nobler spheres of the heavens.” The Bible throughout, even after the Fall, from Job and Genesis, through the Gospels, Acts and Revelation, continues to refer to the atmosphere, one molecule above the ground, as heaven. And David even seems to refer to the “earth” as “the foundations of heaven” (2 Sam. 22:8). Thus this understanding, that God classified the original crust as part of heaven, only expands today’s accepted definition of the term heaven by one molecule, to include not only the atmosphere, but the foundation of that atmosphere, the crust itself.

As man quickly rebelled, though, earth became more like hell than heaven. So man’s habitation promptly lost its designation as part of heaven. Thus the firmament on earth (which divided the waters of the earth, Gen. 1:2, 6), was originally called “heaven,” which Genesis 1 then carefully differentiated from outer space by consistently calling space the “firmament of the heavens.” Moses used the word firmament nine times in the creation story, the last four distinguished from the first four, pivoting around the central instance where God called the earth’s firmament Heaven, by the exceptional repetition of the prepositional phrase, “of the heavens.” That is, each of the four instances in the second grouping (Gen. 1:14, 15, 17, 20) is qualified as “the firmament of the heavens,” so that the reader will not confuse this firmament (of space) with the previous firmament (of the earth). Many centuries, which include the Fall and the tower of Babel, separate the writing of Scripture from the original creation. Therefore after reporting God’s name for the firmament surface of the earth as “Heaven,” the Author took pains to differentiate that other firmament, space, by four times including the qualifying prepositional phrase, “of the heavens,” declaring this a distinct firmament, so that readers alien to the notion of “heaven” on earth will nonetheless be able to distinguish the two firmaments, and understand God’s meaning. Now, millennia after the Fall, sin has almost completely obscured God’s original perspective of the earth’s surface as “heaven,” His own record of creation notwithstanding.

The Bible describes Hell as below, bounded by the firmament, thus “God called the firmament Heaven” because that’s where His innocent children would live, above ground on the surface, in the heavens, in fellowship with Him, not in any other realm but in His heavenly kingdom, in heaven on earth.
 

bob b

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This is a very interesting concept and one which I have never heard before.

I would take issue with some of the peripheral points only at this time, reserving judgment on the main issue until I have time to research the subject further.

First, it is implied that the initial stories in Genesis were not written down at the time they occurred. I will only point out that there is evidence that the stories prior to the Flood in the book of Genesis were authored by eyewitnesses and thus were probably preserved on the Ark by Noah and his family (see "The Tablet Theory of Genesis Authorship" by Curt Sewell). It is not credible that these people would have been able to preserve the detail in the stories unless they had been committed to some form of writing. I might add that I am old enough to remember when it was believed that writing had not been invented as late as the time of Moses, and this theory, which it now known to be false, is probably the genesis of the idea that the stories must have been passed down orally "around the campfire".

My second comment is that I seem to remember Paul mentioning a "third heaven", implying that there is a hierarchy.

My final comment is that translation of the Hebrew text is not done in a vacuum, meaning that the translators world view enters into his/her interpretation of the ancient text. In other words, contemporary theories about the physical world enter into how one translates the text. Thus, a person might be an expert on the subject of Hebrew grammar, but capturing the exact meaning of an ancient word or expression may be influenced by how the world is viewed by people living at the time the translation is done.

I will comment further after doing some additional research on the subject of the meaning of the word "firmament".
 

Turbo

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Could it be that the New Earth will once again be considered part of heaven? Is this why Jesus sometimes referred to [jesus]"the kingdom of heaven"[/jesus] when He preached the kingdom gospel to Israel? It sure seems to fit.
 

bob b

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The Hebrew word for firmament comes from a root word , raqa'.

Here are all the uses of raqa' with their KJV translation:

(Exo 39:3 KJV) And they did beat the gold into thin plates

(Num 16:39 KJV) And Eleazar the priest took the brazen censers …; and they were made broad plates

(2 Sam 22:43 KJV) Then did I beat them as small as the dust of the earth, I did stamp them as the mire of the street, and did spread them abroad. (raqa repeated twice)

(Job 37:18 KJV) Hast thou with him spread out the sky,

(Psa 136:6 KJV) To him that stretched out the earth above the waters

(Isa 40:19 KJV) … the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold,

(Isa 42:5 KJV) Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it;

(Isa 44:24 KJV … I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad (raqa repeated twice) the earth by myself;

(Jer 10:9 KJV) Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish

(Ezek 6:11 KJV) Thus saith the Lord GOD; Smite with thine hand, and stamp with thy foot,

(Ezek 25:6 KJV) For thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast clapped thine hands, and stamped with the feet, …

From this I conclude that the Hebrew word for firmament refers to a material that is stretched or beaten out into one or more layers or plates. This material is specified as either the earth or the sky in the passages where raqa' appears.
 

bob b

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Analysis of the Hebrew word for "firmament" raqaya'.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

In these five instances the material making up the firmament is not specified as such, but is named “Heaven” (Hebrew word shamayim, see below)

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

In these four instances the material making up the firmament is qualified with the Hebrew word “shamayim” which means lofty or sky and is usually translated as “heaven” or “the heavens”.)

Psalm 19:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork.

It is not clear whether both phrases refer to firmaments above the earth or to one above and another on the surface of the earth. The first reference does not say firmament but "heavens", which of course is also a firmament.

Psalm 150:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

Here the material of the firmament is qualified by the Hebrew word meaning “strength”.

Ezek 1:22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
23 And under the firmament were their wings straight,
24 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings
26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne,.

In these four cases the firmanent is apparently simply an area or region.

Daniel 12: 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

This firmament is apparently what we call “outer space”.

From this analysis, I conclude that there are different kinds of firmaments, just as Paul implied that there are different hierarchies of "heavens".
 

Bob Enyart

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Dropping an implication...

Dropping an implication...

I want to get input to make this as bulletproof as possible before I send a copy to Walt Brown. So I appreciate all comments, especially B Ball for his efforts. I think I'll drop the reference to the writing of Scripture coming after the Tower of Babel, to take away the objection to my implication that Moses was the sole written source of the creation account, which can be objected to by the argument B presented that perhaps the creation written tradition came through the Flood. Since this is not relevant to my point that God originally designated the earth's surface as part of heaven's realm, I think I'll lose nothing by dropping it. Thanks B Ball. -Bob E.
 

Jauchzer

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Interesting idea. I don't think God ever referred to earth's surface as part of heaven, though.


1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 entities are mentioned--heaven and earth.

2The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

No dry land

3Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

Interesting in that there was light prior to the creation of the sun. Could this be referring to something similar to some of the nebulous clouds that are supposed to coalesce to form planets? I am not well versed in astronomy, but if the earth were without form and consisted of water, with solid matter beneath, and water vapor and dust above, couldn't glowing clouds of gas give both a night and day to the rotating body of coalescing gas/water/dust/rock of the earth?

6Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."7Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

To me, and I'm no expert, this sounds as if earth being progressively formed. Some water exists in the form of vapor exclusive of the earth and it's atmosphere, while other water exists as a liquid on the face of the earth. In which case, the firmament sounds as if it exists above the earth, but not in the immediate vicinity, as later the sun and moon are placed specifically into the firmament.


9Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so. 10And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

Earth is under the Heavens, and this is prior to Adam's creation. This directional relationship (under) again suggests 2 separate places.

The earth continues to coalesce into a form, Pangea, the original supercontinent appears, surrounded by the seas.

14Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night.

Gaseous clouds, dust clouds coalesce to form sun, stars, and moon.

He made the stars also. 17God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

How could earth and heaven be the same place when the stars are set in the firmament of heaven to light the earth by the fourth day? Adam was formed from the dust of the earth. When Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden, it must have existed on earth, they went east of Eden. This sounds like a lateral move as opposed to Satan's being cast out, falling, ie: downward.

Referring to the directional relationships between earth and heaven lead me to believe that heaven is not a spiritual place, but that it refers to an actual location, the size of which is not specified. As the entire earth is under[/b] heaven, it sounds quite huge, considering that it contains all of the stars which were placed in it.

I may be wrong. I will be the first to confess that I do not have exhaustive knowledge in this area. But logically, it doesn't sound right that heaven and earth would be the same places.
 
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bob b

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I forgot to list the passage where Paul refers to more than one heaven.

2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
 

Jefferson

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Originally posted by Bob Enyart

The global flood began when these “fountains of the great deep were broken up,” (Gen. 7:11).
"The great deep" appears to be outer space, not the oceans. In an account of demonic possession, the Devils "...besought him that he would not command them to go out [note: not "down"] into the deep" (Luke 8:31).

Three times in the New Testament Jesus tells us that the lost are to be "cast out into outer darkness" (Mat. 8:12, 22:13, 25:30). Isaiah 26:19 says "the earth shall cast out her dead." There are 3 Hebrew words for "dead." The first is "muwth" which means "die, to be dead." The second "dead" is "nebeleh" which refers to a "carcase, that which is has died." The third "dead" is the word used in Isaiah 26:19 which is "raphah." Strongs tells us this is "a ghost" or "a giant, Rapha, Rephaim." What Isaiah is saying is at the resurrection of the just, the Rephaim spirits will be "cast out" of the earth. This casting out, or getting them off of the earth, is analogous to once again binding them in the "outer darkness."

This outer darkness may be a synonym for the intermediate place of confinement Revelation calls "the bottomless pit" (Rev. 20:3). Because we tend to think of space as "up," it may be a bit difficult to think of space as "down" in the sense of the bottomless pit - however, the vastness of space definitely makes it "bottomless" unlike the center of the earth which does have a bottom.

Furthermore, in the book of Revelation, we see angels are referred to as "stars," so when Jude refers to "wandering stars" that are destined to move through the "blackness of darkness for ever," it's difficult to see how their celestial prison could be anywhere else but outside the atmosphere of our planet.

When scripture tells us these fallen angels are bound in "chains" it would seem to be highly unlilkely they are bound with some form of physical chain like that which would bind a human being. Fallen angels are "spirits" therefore it would take something special to bind a spiritual being. If the "bottomless pit" is the same place as "the outer darkness" and the "blackness of darkness" of outer space, all that is really required here is some form of barrier that prevents these evil angels from entering back to the surface of the planet. After all, if they are "bound" yet able to be referred to as "wandering stars" by Jude, they must still have some freedom of movement even though they are restricted from re-entering our world. By the way, if they were located under the earth then they would be called something like "wandering spirits." But no, because they seem to have been cast out in to outer space the Bible refers to them as "wandering stars."

So what kind of "chain" binds these wandering stars from reentering earth's atmosphere? Creation scientists believe the ionosphere functions as a barrier that has been in place since the time of the great flood of Noah when the planet most likely experienced a magnetic pole shift due to the cataclysmic conditions of the flood. The ionosphere is the naturally occurring global shield that protects the planet from many harmful external elements - including electrical and magnetic waves and fields. Perhaps the ionosphere prevents spiritual beings from entering our atmosphere as well.

CONCLUSION: When Gen. 7:11 says the "fountains of the great deep were broken up" I believe the verse was refering to "the waters which were above the firmament" (Gen. 1:7).
 
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Jauchzer

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I personally find it fascinating that Moses describes Pangea, the original supercontinent, long before it's existance was ever theorized by scientists.

Here's a bit of scientific information relayed by a person who could not have possibly had any indication of it's significance nor any reason whatsoever to come to this conclusion. A bit of information which had to come from an external source.

The earth was "void and without form." How many lifetimes later would scientists develop the theory of planets being formed from the dust of a solar nebula? Again, scientific information that Moses could not have garnered from any human source available during his lifetime.

:think:
 

Lighthouse

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I've theorized for a few years that heaven and hell are different dimensions. Just an idea.
 

bob b

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Jefferson,

How do you explain this?

Isaiah 51:10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

The two Hebrew words translated here as "great deep" are the same ones used in Genesis and also translated there as "great deep".
 

Jefferson

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Originally posted by bob b

Jefferson,

How do you explain this?

Isaiah 51:10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

The two Hebrew words translated here as "great deep" are the same ones used in Genesis and also translated there as "great deep".
I don't believe the ";" should be in the translation. I think it should read, "Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, (the waters of the great deep that hath made the depths of the sea) a way for the ransomed to pass over?"

It was the waters above the firmament that made the seas when they fell to earth during Noah's flood. That is what Isaiah 51:10 is saying.
 

Bob Enyart

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Hey Jefferson, no book is required reading (other than the Bible), but I'm wondering if you've read Walt Brown's In the Beginning. I went kicking and screaming, defending the Henry Morris view of the firmament and the vaper canopy's role in the flood. Also, have you read much of the arguments that have turned a number of creationists away from the vapor canopy? -Bob
 

Lucky

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Originally posted by Turbo

Could it be that the New Earth will once again be considered part of heaven? Is this why Jesus sometimes referred to [jesus]"the kingdom of heaven"[/jesus] when He preached the kingdom gospel to Israel? It sure seems to fit.
Indeed. :think:
 
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