BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

[elected4ever]

What do you claim I didn't answer? I've responded to everything you've spewed forth, as far as I'm aware of.

Did God approve of the lie and manipulate Ahab to his death or not?

 

[RightIdea]

He allowed it, just as the Open View holds, and He used the already existant sin toward His purpose. It wasn't His plan or intention. He responded to the situation.

Wait, didn't I already just tell you all this? :think:

 

[kmoney]

WHOA.....

You're now telling us that God isn't omnipotent, or that He isn't even wise enough to figure out a way to bring about that end without raping a baby girl???? Are you actually claiming this, now?

Here's a thought. The man doesn't rape the baby girl, but instead goes to the corner store and buys an entertainment magazine where he reads that one of his favorite rockers, Alice Cooper, gave his life to Christ many years ago and forsook alcohol and drugs.... this plants a seed. He mentions it to the counter clerk, who agrees this is a wonderful thing, and then shares the gospel with this sinner, even though the clerk's boss told him not to. Result? This sinner now becomes a saint, accepts Christ, and then goes out and shares the gospel with others.

Now, if I can figure that out off the top of my head in a matter of seconds, then it's certainly insulting to God to suggest that He can't bring about that end without having to go so far as to rape a baby girl! My story's conclusion brings about just as much glory to God as yours does, without any infant rape! Is God an imbecile? Incompetent? Is your God so limted that He can only bring about His will through infant rape many thousands of times over? Cuz I don't believe in a God so terribly limited and incompetent and weak...

:up:

the thought that God would predestine a woman getting raped, no matter what happened as a result, is absolutely wrong.

 

[Clete]

Your stupidity is ordained by God. There's no hope. It's pointless to explain myself again.

As if this statement wouldn't have applied (in your view) the first time you explained yourself.

:darwinsm:

 

[Z Man]

:up:

the thought that God would predestine a woman getting raped, no matter what happened as a result, is absolutely wrong.

God cursed David's household for his sin against Bathsheba. This curse included David's first son's death due to illness, his daughter's rape, which lead to Absalom killing David's other son, Amnon, and then, David's son Absalom to commit adultrey in the sight of all of Israel. God ordained each and every one of these events, including the rape and the adultrious affair. Why? To prove a point to David, and all of Israel.

2 Samuel 12:10-12
Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.' Thus says the Lord: 'Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.'


Curse #1:

2 Samuel 12:15-18
Then Nathan departed to his house.And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became ill. David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. So the elders of his house arose and went to him, to raise him up from the ground. But he would not, nor did he eat food with them. Then on the seventh day it came to pass that the child died.


Curse #2

2 Samuel 13:1-2, 10-14
After this Absalom the son of David had a lovely sister, whose name was Tamar; and Amnon the son of David loved her. Amnon was so distressed over his sister Tamar that he became sick; for she was a virgin.

Then Amnon said to Tamar, "Bring the food into the bedroom, that I may eat from your hand." And Tamar took the cakes which she had made, and brought them to Amnon her brother in the bedroom. Now when she had brought them to him to eat, he took hold of her and said to her, "Come, lie with me, my sister." And she answered him, "No, my brother, do not force me, for no such thing should be done in Israel. Do not do this disgraceful thing! And I, where could I take my shame? And as for you, you would be like one of the fools in Israel. Now therefore, please speak to the king; for he will not withhold me from you." However, he would not heed her voice; and being stronger than she, he forced her and raped her.


Curse #3

2 Samuel 13:28-29, 32
Now Absalom had commanded his servants, saying, "Watch now, when Amnon's heart is merry with wine, and when I say to you, 'Strike Amnon!' then kill him. Do not be afraid. Have I not commanded you? Be courageous and valiant." So the servants of Absalom did to Amnon as Absalom had commanded. Then all the king's sons arose, and each one got on his mule and fled.

Then Jonadab the son of Shimeah, David's brother, answered and said, "Let not my lord suppose they have killed all the young men, the king's sons, for only Amnon is dead. For by the command of Absalom this has been determined from the day that he forced his sister Tamar.


Curse #4

2 Samuel 16:20-22
Then Absalom said to Ahithophel, "Give counsel as to what we should do." And Ahithophel said to Absalom, "Go in to your father's concubines, whom he has left to keep the house; and all Israel will hear that you are abhorred by your father. Then the hands of all who are with you will be strong." So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the top of the house, and Absalom went in to his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel.

 

[1Way]

Ungodliness provided by Z Man via classic Calvinism

Ungodliness provided by Z Man via classic Calvinism

The difference between us is when you think of God ordaining rape, you see God doing the raping. When I think of God ordaining rape, I see man doing the raping. -- Z Man

Z Man says that “God is in control of everything”, He even ordains rape.

“From the smallest thing to the greatest thing, good and evil, happy and sad, pagan and Christian, pain and pleasure - God governs them all for his wise and just and good purposes (Isaiah 46:10).” – Z Man

And

“ “And yet, not once is adultery mentioned. Or murder. Or the rape of women and babies. (--Rimi)”
You don't think God ordains such things?” (--Z Man, i.e. yes, God ordains the rape of women and babies.)

But, Z Man knows that God’s word is only replete about God abhorring and judging against all forms of evil and sin. So he offers the following to try to rescue his absurdities from the harshest rejection.

“Understand that I do not believe God condones/approves of evil.” -- Z Man

Because of his general and errant presuppositions of closed theism common with most all forms of Calvinism, Z Man is constrained to assume that God is in control and ordains everything that happens. But when it comes time to consider that God ordains and controls every heinous and wicked deed, the light of God’s faithful goodness shines all too clearly so he desperately tries to extricate God’s involvement from evil.

However, lets give this about 5 seconds of thought towards this line of reasoning.

If you as God (and no one else) controls/ordains all evil and sin to happen, does that necessarily mean that

you did,

or

you did not,

want it to happen?

???

Maybe Z Man thinks that God is not free to do as He pleases... Maybe Z Man thinks that actually man’s sinfulness actually forces God to control and ordain everything that happens. But wait, wouldn’t that mean that man has at least some control? No, God is in complete control and ordains everything that happens. According to Z Man.

Contradiction and ungodliness is central to Z’s thinking.

Better is, God controls/ordains no evil/sin to happen.

But sin and evil happens on a grand and terrible scale.

Man and angels are responsible for (control) sin/evil, not God.

I’m considering the entire breath of scripture and the overwhelming message from God that He should NEVER be implicated in sin/evil. God is the ultimate in righteousness and goodness. He says woe to those who mix good and evil. As in God’s wrath would be upon those who implicate godliness with evil.

How atrocious it is to actually know that there are Christians that teach that it’s by God’s ordination and control that all evil happens. The slander against God is so terrible and anti-biblical, I pray that everyone will not become dulled by this blasphemous portrayal.

 

[elected4ever]

He allowed it, just as the Open View holds, and He used the already existant sin toward His purpose. It wasn't His plan or intention. He responded to the situation.

Wait, didn't I already just tell you all this? :think:

Non responsive. Did God approve of the action taken by the spirit? A simple yes or no will suffice. I could care less what OV holds or how it trys to explain it away. Will you answer the question?

 

[1Way]

Z Man, you just quoted scripture (see post 705) and effectively said, see, God ordained rape and adultery.

You are one sick person to be so blasphemous, and the level of pride by obviously altering scripture to suite your personal perversion is beyond the pale. (I wish you were banned for incredulous slander and blasphemy against God.) It's spiritual abuse and heresy, nothing less.

 

[elected4ever]

Z Man, you just quoted scripture (see post 705) and effectively said, see, God ordained rape and adultery.

You are one sick person to be so blasphemous, and the level of pride by obviously altering scripture to suite your personal perversion is beyond the pale. (I wish you were banned for incredulous slander and blasphemy against God.) It's spiritual abuse and heresy, nothing less.

You and your elk are so arrogant as to instruct God.You wont to get into a name calling contest?

 

[drbrumley]

Arrogant? Pot calling Kettle Black?

 

[elected4ever]

Arrogant? Pot calling Kettle Black?

Unless you have something constructive to say butt out.

 

[Z Man]

Z Man, you just quoted scripture (see post 705) and effectively said, see, God ordained rape and adultery.

You are one sick person to be so blasphemous, and the level of pride by obviously altering scripture to suite your personal perversion is beyond the pale. (I wish you were banned for incredulous slander and blasphemy against God.) It's spiritual abuse and heresy, nothing less.

The truth hurts, eh?

Instead of ridiculing me, why don't you respond to the Scriptures I posted?

Maybe Z Man thinks that God is not free to do as He pleases... Maybe Z Man thinks that actually man’s sinfulness actually forces God to control and ordain everything that happens. But wait, wouldn’t that mean that man has at least some control? No, God is in complete control and ordains everything that happens. According to Z Man.

Contradiction and ungodliness is central to Z’s thinking.

Better is, God controls/ordains no evil/sin to happen.

But sin and evil happens on a grand and terrible scale.

Man and angels are responsible for (control) sin/evil, not God.

I’m considering the entire breath of scripture and the overwhelming message from God that He should NEVER be implicated in sin/evil. God is the ultimate in righteousness and goodness. He says woe to those who mix good and evil. As in God’s wrath would be upon those who implicate godliness with evil.

How atrocious it is to actually know that there are Christians that teach that it’s by God’s ordination and control that all evil happens. The slander against God is so terrible and anti-biblical, I pray that everyone will not become dulled by this blasphemous portrayal.

I believe that yes, man is responsible for evil and their sins. But I also believe God ordains them. The Scriptures teach us this. Let me explain...

Is God the Author of Sin?

Jonathan Edwards, a world renown American evangelist during the 1700's, once said,

"If by 'the author of sin,' be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing . . . . it would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin."​

But, he argues, willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God's permission, but not by his "positive agency."

God is, Edwards says,

"the permitter . . . of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the state of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted . . . will most certainly and infallibly follow."​

He uses the analogy of the way the sun brings about light and warmth by its essential nature, but brings about dark and cold by dropping below the horizon. "If the sun were the proper cause of cold and darkness," he says, "it would be the fountain of these things, as it is the fountain of light and heat: and then something might be argued from the nature of cold and darkness, to a likeness of nature in the sun." In other words, "sin is not the fruit of any positive agency or influence of the most High, but on the contrary, arises from the withholding of his action and energy, and under certain circumstances, necessarily follows on the want of his influence."

Thus in one sense God wills that what he hates come to pass, as well as what he loves. Edwards says,

God may hate a thing as it is in itself, and considered simply as evil, and yet . . . it may be his will it should come to pass, considering all consequences. . . . God doesn't will sin as sin or for the sake of anything evil; though it be his pleasure so to order things, that he permitting, sin will come to pass; for the sake of the great good that by his disposal shall be the consequence. His willing to order things so that evil should come to pass, for the sake of the contrary good, is no argument that he doesn't hate evil, as evil: and if so, then it is no reason why he may not reasonably forbid evil as evil, and punish it as such.​

This is a fundamental truth that helps explain some perplexing things in the Bible, namely, that God often expresses his will to be one way, and then acts to bring about another state of affairs.

• God opposes hatred toward his people, yet ordained that his people be hated in Egypt (Genesis 12:3; Psalm 105:25 – "He turned their hearts to hate his people.").

• He hardens Pharaoh's heart, but commands him to let his people go (Exodus 4:21; 5:1; 8:1).

• He makes plain that it is sin for David to take a military census of his people, but he ordains that he do it (2 Samuel 24:1; 24:10).

• He opposes adultery, but ordains that Absalom should lie with his father's wives (Exodus 20:14; 2 Samuel 12:11).

• He forbids rebellion and insubordination against the king, but ordained that Jeroboam and the ten tribes should rebel against Rehoboam (Romans 13:1; 1 Samuel 15:23; 1 Kings 12:15-16).

• He opposes murder, but ordains the murder of his Son (Exodus 20:13; Acts 4:28).

• He desires all men to be saved, but effectually calls only some (1 Timothy 2:4; 1 Corinthians 1:26-30; 2 Timothy 2:26).

What this means is that we must learn that God wills things in two different senses. The Bible demands this by the way it speaks of God's will in different ways. Edwards uses the terms "will of decree" and "will of command." Edwards explains:

[God's] will of decree [or sovereign will] is not his will in the same sense as his will of command [or moral will] is. Therefore it is not difficult at all to suppose that the one may be otherwise than the other: his will in both senses is his inclination. But when we say he wills virtue, or loves virtue or the happiness of his creature; thereby is intended that virtue or the creature's happiness, absolutely and simply considered, is agreeable to the inclination of his nature. His will of decree is his inclination to a thing not as to that thing absolutely and simply, but with reference to the universality of things. So God, though he hates a things as it is simply, may incline to it with reference to the universality of things.​

- John Piper

It's a Biblical truth that even though God ordains everything, we are still responsible for our actions. I believe that you are in the wrong 1Way for calling me sick and blasphemous, when all I've done is quote Scriptures to support my views. I'm sorry you don't agree with them, but you need to take that up with God, not me.

 

[drbrumley]

Unless you have something constructive to say butt out.

Oh really.

:think:

NO!

 

[drbrumley]

I guess I was predestined to say that huh?

 

[Rimi]

Z, I've not said that God never steps in and takes care of business. He was angry with David and decided how He would influence to punish. He's a hands-on God when He wants to be. You would have Him remote and unconcerned that children are being raped.

 

[Nineveh]

yes, man is responsible for evil and their sins. But I also believe God ordains them.

ordains: To prearrange unalterably; predestine

Jeremiah records:

They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

How can God "ordain" something that never entered His mind?

 

[Delmar]

I've backed my ideas up with Scripture. Where's yours?

The Bible as a whole backs me up, but I kind of like this verse.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

 

[Shadowx]

Originally Posted by Z Man

Good point. What is your take on Psalms 90?

Psa 90:1 <A Prayer of Moses the man of God.> Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

It reaffirms my position on time, While God is from everlasting to everlasting, no beginning or end, the earth is not, God at some point in time actually created it, the mountains etc etc

Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Peter pulls this verse out and uses it to apply to God's patience with men verses their patience..

Psa 90:5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.
Psa 90:6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.
Psa 90:7 For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled.
Psa 90:8 Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance.
Psa 90:9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.
Psa 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
Psa 90:11 Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath.
Psa 90:12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.
Psa 90:13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.
Psa 90:14 O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days.
Psa 90:15 Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil.
Psa 90:16 Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children.
Psa 90:17 And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.

Was there anything else in here you wanted me to comment on?

God does not ordain, control every thought and action.God does control, ordain every thought and action. It seems to be Zman verses Zman..
God verses God..

Zman trys to convince us he believes both are true:

This is a twofold question here.

1) Was it God's divine will that Israel worship Baal? Yes.

Zman, can you show me where God says it was my *divine* will for you to do what I didn't command, think or order?

2) Did God cause Judah to sin? No.

Was it God's divine will? Who caused them to sin and whoever it was, could they have done different? You cannot have it both ways.

First, lets look at the verses.

Jer 19:3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.
Jer 19:4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 32:32 Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Jer 32:33 And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.
Jer 32:34 But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

I say that we're in some deep anthropomorphism here. I don't really think God has a 'mind', persay. Do you?

Yes, God actually ponders and thinks, we are not sooo totally, completely, in every aspect of our being different then He is, as to even say he has no thought process, that is to much like a man.

In fact, God Himself says, "My thoughts are not your thoughts" "My thoughts are HIGHER then your thoughts" He made us in HIS image, he has thoughts and so do we...He doesn't have them because we have them, but we have them because He does.
Notice also above once again God is saying that the thoughts we have are not his..Your theology once again says they are.

Notice God is about to pass judgment on them BECAUSE they DID NOT do his will as he had forbidden them earlier not to do this very thing.
He also points out that they are not following His instructions.
You point out they surely were..they were not out of God's will, but in it.
Notice the tone,..Israel is being blamed and the cause is God's absense..
Notice God also explains why this happened, "Because they have forsaken me"

In my theology, there is a cause clearly laid out here as to why they did this, "Because they have forsaken me"
They forsook God. They forsook God's will and repeated instructions for them to do other wise.

In your theology they didn't *really* forsake God, but merely forsook God's *revealed* will to them. His *secret* will, that only Calvinist can see..,was in effect here and Israel was simply the puppet on his hand. He was the one murdering their kids, he was just using their hands..

If I have a child and I preprogram him with a micro chip to rape, molest etc etc etc..
I can't say, well, I told you not to do this, you are doing it because you are forsaking me.
No, I am doing it through him, it's my will, not his. He doesn't have a will to do otherwise.

Your view: God pushes Israel away from him and makes them murder their kids..because he wants them to see how good they have it with him? Zman, they never left Him in your theology..Who can leave God in your theology? Your theology is contradictory and so is the nature of God your are presenting. "Only God's will comes to pass" "We don't always do God's will" Both cannot be true.

If God ordains all things..can something other then what he ordains happen?

God also says that they SHOULD not have done it. At some point if this was God's will for them he would have had to of orderd it, he says he never did, but we do see he orderd them not to..

2)Zman, is obedience better then sacrifice? Does God delight more in obedience or sacrifice? Which would he rather have and which brings him the most glory?

1 Sam. 15:22 plainly states that God delights in obedience more than sacrifice. In other words, God is more interested in the heart than in your good works. Many Jews took sacrificing for granted, thinking that they could get away with a lot of stuff, as long as they made a sacrifice at the end of the day, or week, or month, or whatever, to cover their sins. But God made it known that He is more interested in genuine love and obedience from the heart rather than someone who uses God to cover their guilt. That's all I take from that verse.

So you are affirming that God has more "Delight" in obedience then sacrifice?
He wants men to love him and do what is right for THEIR own good..saying a few hail marries doesn't negate the consequnce of sin..

But why isn't isreal doing what you say God wants of them above, if that is His will for them? How are they able to thwart it and do otherwise?

And if God would rather have obediance, then why didn't God bring about what he would rather have so he wouldn't have to come in the person of Christ and die on the cross?
Wouldn't he rather of had Adam obey from the start?

3)In your theology isn't it true that there really is no such thing as disobedience to God? Are we not always obeying God no matter what we do?

Of course not. When we sin, it's not because God MADE us against our will. A person's desire to murder someone, or to rob a store, are not for God's glory, but for their own personal glory or selfish ambitions.

Zman men don't have a will in your theology other then Gods. They are simply carrying out God's will at all times, please name a time when a man is not doing the will of God.

You cannot have it both ways, God ordains all and men can't do otherwise, and then this, "When we sin it's because we want to"
Why do we want to Zman?

In the end, all knees will bow, and every tounge will confess that Jesus is Lord. He'll get His glory, one way or another. That's His perfect will. We may not like it, and we may not even follow it sometimes, as Israel is seen doing here, but nonetheless, it still stands, and forever will.

How could we resist his perfect will?? "We may not follow it at times"??
It is not possible for men to disobey God who preprogrammed them to obey his every command, regardless of what that thought or action is.

I'm not saying Jesus didn't have power to do such a thing. I'm simply stating that He would never use it. His plan was for redemption for all mankind, so that He could receive glory. If calling angels down from Heaven would of glorified God more than sacrificing His own Son, it would of been done that way. But God knew better. Thus, Jesus had no choice

.
But my question is, did he have the true freedom to do it? I didn't ask you if he would have, but if he COULD have, considering all the prophecies..and what would be your take on "Slain before the foundation of the world" You already agreed that Jesus was not wrong when he said the father would send them if he called..

Is it possible what glorified God most is that Jesus had the freedom to call on those angels, but redeemed us instead. That Jesus could have really done other then the prophesies, yet with his freewill, chose not to, isn't that, in part not only the value of the cross, but the evidence for Christ love for us?

Does God have emotions?

Danny

 

[drbrumley]

The truth hurts, eh?

Instead of ridiculing me, why don't you respond to the Scriptures I posted?

I believe that yes, man is responsible for evil and their sins. But I also believe God ordains them. The Scriptures teach us this. Let me explain...

Is God the Author of Sin?

Jonathan Edwards, a world renown American evangelist during the 1700's, once said,

"If by 'the author of sin,' be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing . . . . it would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin."​

But, he argues, willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God's permission, but not by his "positive agency."

God is, Edwards says,

"the permitter . . . of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the state of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted . . . will most certainly and infallibly follow."​

He uses the analogy of the way the sun brings about light and warmth by its essential nature, but brings about dark and cold by dropping below the horizon. "If the sun were the proper cause of cold and darkness," he says, "it would be the fountain of these things, as it is the fountain of light and heat: and then something might be argued from the nature of cold and darkness, to a likeness of nature in the sun." In other words, "sin is not the fruit of any positive agency or influence of the most High, but on the contrary, arises from the withholding of his action and energy, and under certain circumstances, necessarily follows on the want of his influence."

Thus in one sense God wills that what he hates come to pass, as well as what he loves. Edwards says,

God may hate a thing as it is in itself, and considered simply as evil, and yet . . . it may be his will it should come to pass, considering all consequences. . . . God doesn't will sin as sin or for the sake of anything evil; though it be his pleasure so to order things, that he permitting, sin will come to pass; for the sake of the great good that by his disposal shall be the consequence. His willing to order things so that evil should come to pass, for the sake of the contrary good, is no argument that he doesn't hate evil, as evil: and if so, then it is no reason why he may not reasonably forbid evil as evil, and punish it as such.​

This is a fundamental truth that helps explain some perplexing things in the Bible, namely, that God often expresses his will to be one way, and then acts to bring about another state of affairs.

• God opposes hatred toward his people, yet ordained that his people be hated in Egypt (Genesis 12:3; Psalm 105:25 – "He turned their hearts to hate his people.").

• He hardens Pharaoh's heart, but commands him to let his people go (Exodus 4:21; 5:1; 8:1).

• He makes plain that it is sin for David to take a military census of his people, but he ordains that he do it (2 Samuel 24:1; 24:10).

• He opposes adultery, but ordains that Absalom should lie with his father's wives (Exodus 20:14; 2 Samuel 12:11).

• He forbids rebellion and insubordination against the king, but ordained that Jeroboam and the ten tribes should rebel against Rehoboam (Romans 13:1; 1 Samuel 15:23; 1 Kings 12:15-16).

• He opposes murder, but ordains the murder of his Son (Exodus 20:13; Acts 4:28).

• He desires all men to be saved, but effectually calls only some (1 Timothy 2:4; 1 Corinthians 1:26-30; 2 Timothy 2:26).

What this means is that we must learn that God wills things in two different senses. The Bible demands this by the way it speaks of God's will in different ways. Edwards uses the terms "will of decree" and "will of command." Edwards explains:

[God's] will of decree [or sovereign will] is not his will in the same sense as his will of command [or moral will] is. Therefore it is not difficult at all to suppose that the one may be otherwise than the other: his will in both senses is his inclination. But when we say he wills virtue, or loves virtue or the happiness of his creature; thereby is intended that virtue or the creature's happiness, absolutely and simply considered, is agreeable to the inclination of his nature. His will of decree is his inclination to a thing not as to that thing absolutely and simply, but with reference to the universality of things. So God, though he hates a things as it is simply, may incline to it with reference to the universality of things.​

- John Piper

It's a Biblical truth that even though God ordains everything, we are still responsible for our actions. I believe that you are in the wrong 1Way for calling me sick and blasphemous, when all I've done is quote Scriptures to support my views. I'm sorry you don't agree with them, but you need to take that up with God, not me.

Then there is no such thing as free will. God doesn't love us enough to create us with free will. He has already in His mind already sent millions of folks to hell BEFORE they were even Born. Never even given the chance. God knew He would send these folks to hell and there is nothing going to stop him. Not even prayer. ZMan, I know you just love the fact that you, before you were even thought of, were bound for heaven. Nobody had to witness to you to become saved, unless of course, that was just manufactured to look like christians who witnessed to you were actually doing something with thier faith. This is all nothing but one big play and we play a part according to the script. The good guys vs the bad guys. Its all ordained from the beginning. Right? The Lambs book of Life was already full BEFORE God even created the Universe. Yes, I know, you and E4E will say, but you had a choice to accept or not. But God knew your decision before you even made it. How sweet. Don't you just feel the love? How is that a choice? Please tell me ZMan and E4E, if God knows my decisions from the beginning and He has ordained it, how did I have a choice in the matter. He already predestined me to be saved and accept His son as my sin payment. Could I have said No? If I said no, and that was the answer ordained by God, then by all means , please explain how I even had a choice?

God, RobotDaveBrumley reporting for duty sir. RobotZMan, reporting for duty sir. I don't really want to live my life for you and honor you cause I WANT TO. No sir, you force me. I don't love you God cause I WANT TO, but because you, before the world even came to be, knew that I was going to love you because you ordained it. You said it was going to happen regardless. You forced me to love you. I'm sorry, but that is not love and that is not honor. King David loved God more than any man alive or dead. God even said so. But obviouly that can't be true. God forced David's love more than any man alive or dead would be more correct. I thank you for ZMan and E4E, that thru them, you made revelation to me that I'm just a robot.

Robot

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I am guessing Z Man makes most Calvinists cringe because he says the things that normally Calvinists are too embarrassed to say.

Z Man is proof positive that some people actually think like this! :shocked: