BATTLE TALK ~ BRX (rounds 1 thru 3)

[Z Man]

You don't even know me, Z! I've known the man in real life for years, have been on his radio show, and had just talked to him only a few hours before that post. He is a friend of my ministry, especially our founder. And yet.... I do NOT believe everything he's said (or done for that matter), we have doctrinal differences, and I particularly disagree with certain kinds of activism he's done in the past. Bob is most certainly not my guru. I know there are some people here at this website who do see him that way, but I certainly do not.

Well, I'm very glad to hear that.

You would do well to know at least a little something about a person before judging them. (I'm not opposed to judging, but you oughta at least know what you're talking about before proving yourself the fool.) Heck, I've criticized Bob on a number of things regarding this debate, including the serious issue of staying on topic! And you think I'm an Enyart yes-man? I think not.

And furthermore, I DID answer your question, I did give an answer. I simply said that Enyart will have a better one because I happen to know he's about to cover this very thing in a couple days. That's all.

Then I'm sorry.

Ah, so you're a universalist, then? You believe that all people, both believers and unbelievers, are "in Christ" and reconciled to Him, etc.?

This is some interesting news, I must say!

No, I do not believe in universalism.

I see Ephesians 1:11 in the same manner that I see Romans 8:28. All things simply means just that; all things. Whether it be tragedies, suffering, joyous times, blessings; whatever. Paul is not referring to people, or just the Body of Christ when he says 'all things'; he's referring to events in life.

If you think I'm going to write a commentary on every one of a couple dozen passages you rattle off, at your whim and beck and call, you've got another think coming to you. You can't just throw down a laundry list and expect people to analyze every verse separately, Z. That's not even remotely fair. However, I'll take a look at Amos 3:6 and Job 2:10.

I don't expect a commentary on every Scripture I present. I however, do expect some sort of response period. You totally ignored all of them. I felt it necessary to post them to show that God does work 'all things' for His will. That includes all the things listed in the verses I posted, from the killing of children, to the infliction of diseases and blindness; God works all of these for His will.

What is God talking about here? The way things happen in all nations all the time regardless of situation? Heck no. God is warning Israel about judgment at a specific time, and saying He is going to specifically brnig calamity to her, that it is on the way. And when it happens, they will know.... that at that time, if calamatous events like that happen, they will know that this time, it was the Lord's doing.

Great. Then you concede with me that the Lord does bring about calamity. That's all I wanted to prove!

This is talking about a specific impending event! Not a universal declaration, Z. It's right there in black and white.

Amos states that the Lord is responsible for calamity in a city; it seems like a rather broad statement to me. He wasn't declaring a punishment for one exact city, but wanted people to be aware that if there ever is calamity, period, then the Lord has brought it about. That's for any city, for all time.

Now, as for Job 2:10? This one is considerably easier.

"10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips."

I really don't see your point about this passage. Where does it say that it was God that visited adversity upon Job? On the contrary, the preceding verses explicitly state that it was Satan that did this, not God. I don't even see a point to this one, frankly.

Satan inflicted boils upon Job, but not without God's permission. Job did not seek comfort from secondary causes, but from the primary cause. He blamed God for his adversity, and the Bible says he did not sin by doing so.

Saying God is the primary cause of our adversity in life, whether it be in sickness, or even in the death and tragedies of our loved ones, is not wrong, nor is it charging God with wrong. Job did it. Why do you have a hard time believing it?

 

[CRASH]

Hypocrite

Hypocrite

If you want to add to the debate by saying something intelligent, by all means, please do so. But if you want to come up here to ridicule someone you disagree with, you should keep your mouth shut.

Let's see, what I say isn't intelligent because you disagree with me. Sounds like ridicule. And since you have ridiculed me and Right Idea (see below) if you follow your own advice you will now be obligated to keep your flyboy mouth shut.

@ 8:58 this morning:

The fact that you do not have an answer for this until Bob gives you one tells me that you are lost without Bob. You have believed everything he has ever said. If it comes from Bob's mouth, it's immediately truth to you, without even the slightest idea to compare or research Bob's teachings with what the Word of God says. I'm willing to bet if Bob said that pink aliens are coming from Pluto to kill all sinners, you'd believe him!

 

[RightIdea]

OV sounds more like Greek mythology than does CV. OV reminds me of Hercules talking to Zeus to make a bargain than Christianity. :rotfl: :e4e:

I already brought up where God told Moses that He would destroy the Israelites in the desert, wipe them out... and start over with Moses.

So, of course God did this, right E4E? Altho... I can't seem to find where He did that in Exodus (or anywhere else, for that matter)... Can you please point out where God carried out what He said He would do, there? :think:

Just like Z, you'd have us believe God is a chronic liar. God said He would definitely do X, knowing the entire time He would never do any such thing. If that's not a lie, then nothing is. Over and over and over again. God repeatedly lies to believers and unbelievers alike, for His greater glory. So you say.

(As for me, I hope Bob will hit this point hard in upcoming posts!)

 

[elected4ever]

I already brought up where God told Moses that He would destroy the Israelites in the desert, wipe them out... and start over with Moses.

So, of course God did this, right E4E? Altho... I can't seem to find where He did that in Exodus (or anywhere else, for that matter)... Can you please point out where God carried out what He said He would do, there? :think:

Just like Z, you'd have us believe God is a chronic liar. God said He would definitely do X, knowing the entire time He would never do any such thing. If that's not a lie, then nothing is. Over and over and over again. God repeatedly lies to believers and unbelievers alike, for His greater glory. So you say.

(As for me, I hope Bob will hit this point hard in upcoming posts!)

Will God lie to achieve the results he wonts? Yes he will and he has been recorded in scripture as doing so. Yes God will manipulate men to achieve His objective. He has been recorded in scripture as doing so You seem to read scripture with blinders on.

 

[RightIdea]

Will God lie to achieve the results he wonts? Yes he will and he has been recorded in scripture as doing so. Yes God will manipulate men to achieve His objective. He has been recorded in scripture as doing so You seem to read scripture with blinders on.

Well, there you have it. That's all I wanted to hear. Thank you.


You heard it here, folks. God is a chronic liar who deceives both believers and unbelievers for His personal glory. He'll flat out state that He will definitely do something, knowing full well the entire time that He never will do any such thing. This is the Calvinist view of God.

Defending His sovereignty at the expense of His righteousness, His goodness.

 

[Poly]

Will God lie to achieve the results he wonts? Yes he will and he has been recorded in scripture as doing so.

Please give these scriptures.

 

[Z Man]

Let's see, what I say isn't intelligent because you disagree with me. Sounds like ridicule. And since you have ridiculed me and Right Idea (see below) if you follow your own advice you will now be obligated to keep your flyboy mouth shut.

@ 8:58 this morning:

Are you still talking?

:shut:

 

[Z Man]

Just like Z, you'd have us believe God is a chronic liar. God said He would definitely do X, knowing the entire time He would never do any such thing. If that's not a lie, then nothing is. Over and over and over again. God repeatedly lies to believers and unbelievers alike, for His greater glory. So you say.

Right Idea,

I already explained my views on this issue, yet you continuely state that I believe God is a liar. Why?

And why have you conviently ignored my last post to you?

God is a chronic liar who deceives both believers and unbelievers for His personal glory. He'll flat out state that He will definitely do something, knowing full well the entire time that He never will do any such thing. This is the Calvinist view of God.

No it's not. You've made this entire strawman up yourself! Stop spreading lies about something you don't understand.

 

[Poly]

Are you still talking?

:shut:

You misspelled....

You're right, I shouldn't be a hypocrite in suggesting that others not do something that I am known to do myself.

 

[RightIdea]

Right Idea,

I already explained my views on this issue, yet you continuely state that I believe God is a liar. Why?

And why have you conviently ignored my last post to you?

No it's not. You've made this entire strawman up yourself! Stop spreading lies about something you don't understand.

I didn't make anything up, at all! You agreed that God tells people what He knows to be blatantly false information, to accomplish His goals. And I asked you... how is that not a lie?

E4H admits that God is a chronic liar.... and he isn't even a Calvinist. So, why can't you say the same? You've said multiple times that God said He'd do something when He emphatically knew He would not. And He does this numerous times in the Bible. How is that not a lie?


Besides, even if what you say I did is true.... I didn't lie. I (allegedly) said something I know for a fact is false... That isnt' a lie, according to you. After all, God does it all the time, and He's not a liar, right?

 

[Rimi]

ZDuh wrote:

Well why don't you tell us? I want to hear what you think about God allowing rape to occur, when He has the power to stop it. What kind of hope and trust can the parents find in a God who sits back and allows it to happen for no reason at all? God can't see the future, in your view, so how does a baby rape fit into His plan (if He even has a plan)? Does God comfort the family by telling them, 'Oops'?

Why don't you give us your take on your version of God. . . . allowing rape to happen when He knew of it before He even created the earth when He has the power to prevent it? What kind of hope and trust can the parents find in a God who sits back and allows it to happen for ANY reason at all when He KNEW it was going to happen before it ever came to be? God can see the future, in your view, so how does a baby rape fit into His plan? Does God comfort the family by telling them, 'I ordained it. I wanted your baby raped!'?

 

[Rimi]

Z Man wrote:

I never said God condones rape. Don't slander people by lying about them. It's rude.

Since you're saying God's foreordains and foreknows it, that means you're saying He condones it. You are slandering our Holy God.

From God, to the parents whose baby was raped:

"Oops. I'm really sorry about that. But, there was nothing I could do to prevent it. I can't infringe upon man's freewill. You'll just have to live with that."

ZIdiot, it is nothing so scurrilous as what you're saying: From God to the parents whose baby was raped: "Oops, I'm really sorry about that, but I knew it was going to happen and it's the way I ordained it and that's the way it is, nothing I could do to prevent it. I made man with an idea of free will, but he has none since I knew all that came to be before it ever was, including your baby's rape and terror. You'll just have to get over it."

What kind of hope can they have in a God who has no control, or no plan?

What kind of hope can they have in a God who knew it would happen and allowed it anyway?

In my view, I would have hope that God knows all, and His view is eternal, compared to my limited 'NOW' view. I believe God has a bigger plan, and that even though we may endure suffering and tribulations now, it is all being worked out for a greater good in the end.

Then in saying this, you're accusing God of needing evil to fulfill His Holy purposes for us. You slander Him yet again by calling our Holy, Holy, Holy God guilty of aiding and abetting evil, rape, murder, slander, thievery . . . all the things He said DON'T DO. You modify Him as saying "DON'T DO . . . except it's for my purposes."

I can believe this because I believe, by the proof of Scripture, that God sees all and knows all (including the future), and that He works all things out for a greater good; mainly that He be glorified. Job may not of understood why God took his children at the time, but in the end, he saw why.

God had to go see if the reports of Sodom and Gomorrah were true. God wasn't sure if He should share His plans with Abraham. God gave the Israelites a promise of His goodness or the threat of His wrath. God claimed that when the Israelites were throwing their kids into the fires (for Molech, I believe) they were doing a thing THAT NEVER EVEN ENTERED INTO HIS MIND!!!!! YES! Out of Scriptures is His own admission that He does not know every evil thing we will do. Sometimes He has to go and even see it for Himself to see if it's for real! Does God make good come out of evil? Sure, but He doesn't need the evil to do good because HE IS GOOD AND DOESN'T NEED US! Do go get that? God doesn't need US or our evil to be glorified. OH, and to my knowledge, Job never did understand why those things happened to him. He was merely faithful and trusted God and God blessed him for that.

What makes you think human babies are more valuable than God's glory?

What makes you think God needs babies or anyone or anything for His glory?
What makes you think God would need a child being raped to be able to show His goodness and glory?
He didn't need it before us. He doesn't NEED us. Do you understand that? And He certainly does NOT need evil.

 

[SpiritusNaturae]

I think initially Lamerson was focusing on Sanders and Boyds versions of Open View theology. That is the idea that Christ is the truest expression of God's character and that understanding Him and His relation to future knowledge gives us the clearest picture of God. I believe because of that fact it is dishonest to say Lamerson is 'manipulating' the debate,as I've read stated here .

 

[Z Man]

What kind of hope and trust can the parents find in a God who sits back and allows it to happen for ANY reason at all when He KNEW it was going to happen before it ever came to be? God can see the future, in your view, so how does a baby rape fit into His plan?

Well, of course I don't know the exact answer, but there are several thousands of possibilities in which God can fit a 'baby rape' into His perfect plan. For starters, the rapist is caught, sent to prison, and gang raped by other inmates there. In his guilt and shame, he comes to believe in the Gospel after hearing it for the first time at a prison ministry meeting. He may spread the news to other inmates, who may in turn become saved as well. They then tell others and so forth.

That's just one scenario. Maybe the parents, out of frustration and confusion, go seek guidance from a therapist who happens to be a Christian. The therapist sows the Word of God in their hearts and it comforts them. They in turn, become saved. That's another scenario. The possibilities are endless. For you to not trust God and His divine plan is disappointing, considering you are a Christian. He created everything, and He has the right to destroy us as He sees fit. That includes babies. And there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[RightIdea]

Well, of course I don't know the exact answer, but there are several thousands of possibilities in which God can fit a 'baby rape' into His perfect plan. For starters, the rapist is caught, sent to prison, and gang raped by other inmates there. In his guilt and shame, he comes to believe in the Gospel after hearing it for the first time at a prison ministry meeting. He may spread the news to other inmates, who may in turn become saved as well. They then tell others and so forth.

That's just one scenario. Maybe the parents, out of frustration and confusion, go seek guidance from a therapist who happens to be a Christian. The therapist sows the Word of God in their hearts and it comforts them. They in turn, become saved. That's another scenario. The possibilities are endless. For you to not trust God and His divine plan is disappointing, considering you are a Christian. He created everything, and He has the right to destroy us as He sees fit. That includes babies. And there's nothing you can do about it.

WHOA.....

You're now telling us that God isn't omnipotent, or that He isn't even wise enough to figure out a way to bring about that end without raping a baby girl???? Are you actually claiming this, now?

Here's a thought. The man doesn't rape the baby girl, but instead goes to the corner store and buys an entertainment magazine where he reads that one of his favorite rockers, Alice Cooper, gave his life to Christ many years ago and forsook alcohol and drugs.... this plants a seed. He mentions it to the counter clerk, who agrees this is a wonderful thing, and then shares the gospel with this sinner, even though the clerk's boss told him not to. Result? This sinner now becomes a saint, accepts Christ, and then goes out and shares the gospel with others.

Now, if I can figure that out off the top of my head in a matter of seconds, then it's certainly insulting to God to suggest that He can't bring about that end without having to go so far as to rape a baby girl! My story's conclusion brings about just as much glory to God as yours does, without any infant rape! Is God an imbecile? Incompetent? Is your God so limted that He can only bring about His will through infant rape many thousands of times over? Cuz I don't believe in a God so terribly limited and incompetent and weak...

 

[elected4ever]

I already brought up where God told Moses that He would destroy the Israelites in the desert, wipe them out... and start over with Moses.

So, of course God did this, right E4E? Altho... I can't seem to find where He did that in Exodus (or anywhere else, for that matter)... Can you please point out where God carried out what He said He would do, there? :think:

Just like Z, you'd have us believe God is a chronic liar. God said He would definitely do X, knowing the entire time He would never do any such thing. If that's not a lie, then nothing is. Over and over and over again. God repeatedly lies to believers and unbelievers alike, for His greater glory. So you say.

(As for me, I hope Bob will hit this point hard in upcoming posts!)

Sense only one passage proves my point I will use just one

1 Kings 22:19 *And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 *And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 *And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 *And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 *Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

 

[Z Man]

Since you're saying God's foreordains and foreknows it, that means you're saying He condones it. You are slandering our Holy God.

How can you say that forordain and forknowledge = condone? Do you understand the definition to any of these words?

Understand that I do not believe God condones/approves of evil.

From God to the parents whose baby was raped: "Oops, I'm really sorry about that, but I knew it was going to happen and it's the way I ordained it and that's the way it is, nothing I could do to prevent it. I made man with an idea of free will, but he has none since I knew all that came to be before it ever was, including your baby's rape and terror. You'll just have to get over it."

I think it would be more like this:

"Shall you indeed accept good from Me, and shall you not accept adversity? All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; I do according to My will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain My hand or say to Me, "What have You done?" Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the Lord? I kill and make alive; I bring down to the grave and bring up. My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure. I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things."​

- (Job 2:10; Daniel 4:35; Exodus 4:11; 1 Samuel 2:6; Isaiah 45:7, 46:10)

What kind of hope can they have in a God who knew it would happen and allowed it anyway?

The same hope Job had:

Job 42:1-6
Then Job answered the Lord and said: "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

Then in saying this, you're accusing God of needing evil to fulfill His Holy purposes for us. You slander Him yet again by calling our Holy, Holy, Holy God guilty of aiding and abetting evil, rape, murder, slander, thievery . . . all the things He said DON'T DO. You modify Him as saying "DON'T DO . . . except it's for my purposes."

Lies. No one is accusing God of needing anything.

God had to go see if the reports of Sodom and Gomorrah were true. God wasn't sure if He should share His plans with Abraham. God gave the Israelites a promise of His goodness or the threat of His wrath. God claimed that when the Israelites were throwing their kids into the fires (for Molech, I believe) they were doing a thing THAT NEVER EVEN ENTERED INTO HIS MIND!!!!! YES! Out of Scriptures is His own admission that He does not know every evil thing we will do. Sometimes He has to go and even see it for Himself to see if it's for real! Does God make good come out of evil? Sure, but He doesn't need the evil to do good because HE IS GOOD AND DOESN'T NEED US! Do go get that? God doesn't need US or our evil to be glorified.

I understand that, and I agree. God doesn't need us at all.

OH, and to my knowledge, Job never did understand why those things happened to him. He was merely faithful and trusted God and God blessed him for that.

He knew God did it:

Job 1:18-22
"Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, and suddenly a great wind came from across F4 the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!"

Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. And he said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked shall I return there. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; Blessed be the name of the Lord." In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong.


And he understood why:

Job 42:1-6
Then Job answered the Lord and said: "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

What makes you think God needs babies or anyone or anything for His glory?
What makes you think God would need a child being raped to be able to show His goodness and glory?
He didn't need it before us. He doesn't NEED us. Do you understand that? And He certainly does NOT need evil.

I know that. I never made it a point to prove that God needed us or evil. You're getting sidetracked here. Do try and stay focused please.

 

[RightIdea]

So, God spoke the truth, and this evil spirit told a lie.

How in blue blazes does that prove your point?

 

[RightIdea]

I know that. I never made it a point to prove that God needed us or evil. You're getting sidetracked here. Do try and stay focused please.

Oh, so now you agree God never actually needed any babies raped to bring about His will.... He just did it anyway.... for what???? Why???

 

[Z Man]

WHOA.....

You're now telling us that God isn't omnipotent, or that He isn't even wise enough to figure out a way to bring about that end without raping a baby girl???? Are you actually claiming this, now?

No one is claiming anything, calm down.

Here's a thought. The man doesn't rape the baby girl, but instead goes to the corner store and buys an entertainment magazine where he reads that one of his favorite rockers, Alice Cooper, gave his life to Christ many years ago and forsook alcohol and drugs.... this plants a seed. He mentions it to the counter clerk, who agrees this is a wonderful thing, and then shares the gospel with this sinner, even though the clerk's boss told him not to. Result? This sinner now becomes a saint, accepts Christ, and then goes out and shares the gospel with others.

Now, if I can figure that out off the top of my head in a matter of seconds, then it's certainly insulting to God to suggest that He can't bring about that end without having to go so far as to rape a baby girl! My story's conclusion brings about just as much glory to God as yours does, without any infant rape! Is God an imbecile? Incompetent? Is your God so limted that He can only bring about His will through infant rape many thousands of times over? Cuz I don't believe in a God so terribly limited and incompetent and weak...

Great scenario. Unfortunately, there are baby rapes in the world. And in your story, you had a rocker doing drugs. I wonder who he bought them from, or how he got them? Anyways, that leads down another road.

Could God have saved you a different way other than predestining the death of His own Son? If Christ could not avoid suffering, why do you think God owes us that luxary? We can come up with great stories of how God could do this and that all day long. The fact still remains that evil exists, and God uses it to His advantage.