BATTLE TALK ~ Battle Royale IV - JALTUS vs. s9s27s54

[Jaltus]

Hmmm, please show where doctrine is equated with the Word of God.

I would be most interested to see that.

 

[Jaltus]

I Tim 6:3

even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;


Anyone else notice that "words of our Lord Jesus Christ" is separated from "doctrine?"

 

[bill betzler]

Jaltus,

I think it is a finished product, finished long ago. I just think we, the church, have mangled it. I am not looking to "complete" it, but to find what we once had.

Big difference.

I understand what you are saying. I go to the KJB and say it is true by faith knowing nothing else but that.

Whereas, you must first determine if certain words are indeed scripture before you add it to your compilation which you would call your Bible. Or, is there a certain written Bible today that you think is perfect? I think not because your still trying to get back to the originals.

So like Luther you still use reason to justify your faith. But Luther is right in that faith and reason are at odds with each other. they are iron and clay. And scripturely faith is what pleases God not reasoning. We must be as little children in our faith.

 

[rapt]

Poor Jaltus can't understand that Jesus' sayings ARE His doctrine. (And he's a seminarian??) Christ condemned the Pharisees for teaching false doctrine (tradition of men), so He obviously taught TRUE DOCTRINE. He said if a person heard His sayings (doctrine; word), and did not keep them, he was like a foolish man that built his house on the sand, which immediately falls under the stress of a storm. Jaltus' denial that Jesus's sayings are His doctrine, and that the two are inseperable, likewise falls short of the truth.

Christ's words ARE His doctrine. They CANNOT be seperated and one still have the Jesus of scripture. Once a person seperates Christ from His Word, all that remains is "another Jesus" (2Cor 11:3,4).

 

[Revelation717]

JaltusI Tim 6:3

even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;


Anyone else notice that "words of our Lord Jesus Christ" is separated from "doctrine?"

1Th:1:3: Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Jaltus, your point?

 

[rapt]

We see where Paul reasoned from the scriptures in Acts.

We see God saying "Come, let us reason together".

We see an apostle asking prayer that they might be delivered from unreasonable men.

It takes a rational, reasonable mind to arrive at the conclusions of scripture that fit together with each other rather than those that contradict each other. An unreasonable mind refuses to see any contradictions, and embraces whatever is most convenient, and that takes the least suffering.

 

[rapt]

Which Jesus do you serve: a doctrineless one, or the TRUE CHRIST?

Which Jesus do you serve: a doctrineless one, or the TRUE CHRIST?

Doctrine = teaching.

Matt 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Matt 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Mark 1:27
And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

Mark 4:2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,

Mark 12:38
And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,

Luke 4:32
And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

Romans 6:17
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Acts 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:

7 Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.

8 But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

John 7:17
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Acts 5:28
Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

1 Timothy 1:3
As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

2 Timothy 4
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

1 Timothy 4:16
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

2 John 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Revelation 2:14
But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

15
So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

We see the sermon on the mount is called Christ's "doctrine".

We see Christ's teaching that in the resurrection there will be no marriage is called His "doctrine".

We see Christ's authority IS His doctrine.

We see that Christ's parables were His doctrine.

We see Christ's WARNINGS as His doctrine.

We see that Christ's WORD is powerful doctrine.

We see that the doctrine of Christ is what delivers people from serving sin, not some doctrineless and therefore powerless Jesus.

We see Paul calling down blindness on the false prophet Barjesus for perverting God's word is called the "doctrine of the Lord".

We see in John 7 that to understand Christ's doctrine requires OBEDIENCE to what part of it that one DOES understand. If one is faithful with a little, he will be given more. If he is UNfaithful to do it, even that that he has been given will be taken from him.

We see that the doctrine of Christ condemned those who condemned Christ.

We see that the church is exhorted to AVOID those who teach against the doctrine of Christ, because they do not serve Christ but rather their own lusts, and deceive the naive. If they don't teach what Christ taught, then they can't be teaching Jesus Christ!

We see the apostle warning that no other gospel be preached, yet also warning that some will depart from the faith giving heed to doctrines of devils just as the Pharisees had done, who thereby worshipped God in VAIN.

We see that the time will come (ha, it's HERE) when they do not endure sound doctrine, which is synomous with the TRUTH. We know that Jesus IS the way, the TRUTH, and the life, so then sound doctrine IS Jesus Christ.

We see that the doctrine of God is necessary for salvation.

We see that if a person doesn't abide in Christ's doctrine, he has neither the Father nor the Son abiding in him, therefore he is not saved, and cannot be called a brother "in Christ". It is altogether necessary to abide in the doctrine of Christ, for in so doing one abides in Christ Himself. Jesus IS the Word of God (John 1:1;14; Rev 19:13)

We see that God HATES false doctrine, and holds it against any church that teaches it. He says that He will kill Jezebel's children (those who embrace her DOCTRINE) with DEATH. They are NOT saved who embrace false doctrine; nay, rather, they worship God in VAIN. (Matt 15:6-9)

It is VAIN WORSHIP to suppose that one can seperate Christ from His doctrine.

 

[Ginger]

Jaltus said: "Anyone else notice that "words of our Lord Jesus Christ" is separated from "doctrine?"

Are you saying that the stuff over at the Christian bookstore is doctrine? And the Words of our Lord Jesus Christ is not doctrine?

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

[rapt]

Ginger:

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Good point, Ginger!

1 John 1
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

That is, if we say we know Jesus but deny His doctrine, we are liars. The truth must be performed, not merely believed. One might claim to believe but have no deeds to verify his belief. James says "Show me your faith without any works and I'll show you my faith BY my works". He shows that dead, lifeless, workless faith saves nobody, but is merely the EMPTY faith of devils. They know God exists. What good does it do them? They're lost and doomed to hell. So is everyone that professes to know Jesus and yet denies and attempts to seperate Jesus from the DOCTRINE of Christ, who IS God.

Jesus and His Word are one.

 

[CRC_FChristian]

Originally posted by Jaltus
Again, the only problem I have with the KJV (other than it is old) is the KJVOs.

I think the OT translation is one of the best. The NT needs some work, but hey, usually nobody gets the OT right (understanding genre is a big deal, and the KJV nailed it).

I have a question for you:

Do you think God is the author of confusion ?

 

[CRC_FChristian]

Re: Which Jesus do you serve: a doctrineless one, or the TRUE CHRIST?

Re: Which Jesus do you serve: a doctrineless one, or the TRUE CHRIST?

Originally posted by rapt
Doctrine = teaching.


We see the sermon on the mount is called Christ's "doctrine".

We see Christ's teaching that in the resurrection there will be no marriage is called His "doctrine".

We see Christ's authority IS His doctrine.

We see that Christ's parables were His doctrine.

We see Christ's WARNINGS as His doctrine.

We see that Christ's WORD is powerful doctrine.

We see that the doctrine of Christ is what delivers people from serving sin, not some doctrineless and therefore powerless Jesus.

We see Paul calling down blindness on the false prophet Barjesus for perverting God's word is called the "doctrine of the Lord".

We see in John 7 that to understand Christ's doctrine requires OBEDIENCE to what part of it that one DOES understand. If one is faithful with a little, he will be given more. If he is UNfaithful to do it, even that that he has been given will be taken from him.

We see that the doctrine of Christ condemned those who condemned Christ.

We see that the church is exhorted to AVOID those who teach against the doctrine of Christ, because they do not serve Christ but rather their own lusts, and deceive the naive. If they don't teach what Christ taught, then they can't be teaching Jesus Christ!

We see the apostle warning that no other gospel be preached, yet also warning that some will depart from the faith giving heed to doctrines of devils just as the Pharisees had done, who thereby worshipped God in VAIN.

We see that the time will come (ha, it's HERE) when they do not endure sound doctrine, which is synomous with the TRUTH. We know that Jesus IS the way, the TRUTH, and the life, so then sound doctrine IS Jesus Christ.

We see that the doctrine of God is necessary for salvation.

We see that if a person doesn't abide in Christ's doctrine, he has neither the Father nor the Son abiding in him, therefore he is not saved, and cannot be called a brother "in Christ". It is altogether necessary to abide in the doctrine of Christ, for in so doing one abides in Christ Himself. Jesus IS the Word of God (John 1:1;14; Rev 19:13)

We see that God HATES false doctrine, and holds it against any church that teaches it. He says that He will kill Jezebel's children (those who embrace her DOCTRINE) with DEATH. They are NOT saved who embrace false doctrine; nay, rather, they worship God in VAIN. (Matt 15:6-9)

It is VAIN WORSHIP to suppose that one can seperate Christ from His doctrine.

Great post rapt. Couldnt have conveyed the point any better myself! :thumb:

Exactly right that doctrine=teaching. This is my biggest problem with the newer translations. They for most part are so watered down(removing deity of Christ, removing shedding of his blood)! No wonder people are confused about what the truth is!

 

[bill betzler]

Jaltus,

I Tim 6:3

even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

All that this verse is saying is that the words of Jesus are equal to doctrine. Some words of the Bible are from other authors besides Jesus. But Timothy is saying that the words of Jesus are equal to any scripture they had.

 

[bill betzler]

from Jaltus, Hmmm, please show where doctrine is equated with the Word of God.

I would be most interested to see that.

John14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus says that he is the truth. Doctrine is truth.

 

[bill betzler]

Pilgrimagain,

How come your not jumping in and helping Jaltus on this one? Could it be that you disagree with Jaltus on this one?

These posts are not like vendettas. We are suppose to be on the side of truth, regardless of who says it.

I don't dislike anyone just because I disagree with them or they disagree with me.

When we search for truth do we not sometimes kick against the pricks because we do not want to be shown wrong?

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Originally posted by Revelation717




1Th:1:3: Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Jaltus, your point?

Speaking of looking for a point?

 

[Pilgrimagain]

Bill I'm nor sure what you want me to say. I agree with Jaltus on this one. HUman doctrine is not equatable to Jesus Christ. If Rapt is correct in saying the Jesus condemened human tradition then the KJVO's need to look out because they base their faith soley on a certain tradition of translation and interpretation and not on the final authority of God.

Christ and God are much bigger than our flawed human doctrine.

 

[bill betzler]

Pilgrimagain,

Boy, there is sure a lot of miscommunication here. We are not saying anything about human doctrine. If we were, I would agree with you and Jaltus 100%. When we say doctrine, we mean the word of God.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

The word of God = doctrine?

 

[Hisown]

Faith or works?

Faith or works?

You all are too too smart for little ole me, I just believe what Jesus said, "If you have the faith of a mustard seed you can move mountains. Jesus said it and I believe it and thats the end of it. If it is in the KJ or any other authentic Bible. God will not allow his Word to be misused for very long. The Bibles that I have read for the most part stick to the Word pretty close.

There is a Bible that mentions "Easter" and I cannot remember the name of it. One of the ladies I go to Sunday School with had it and actually showed me where it was but I cannot remember the name of it. Anyone?

 

[Ginger]

What doctrine is according to the Bible.

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 4: I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

As you can see true doctrine is the Word of God: 2Tim 3:16, and other stuff from teachers is not true doctrine: 2Tim 4:3-4

Is this clear to everyone yet, it is clear to me.