Battle Royale VII Specific discussion thread

[Freak]

Originally posted by Bob Enyart
Freak (I must admit, it seems weird to address a Christian that way),

Okay.

Dir: “Children who grow up in a culture without clothes of course become conditioned to live that way. But when a person is saved, I will tell you this, that modesty does come back.

Inserted from Freak's Post: "Yes, a life changes (including one's modesty) when you come to Christ..."

As I have noted, generally speaking that is the case. But not always.

Bob to Dir: Is such public nudity mostly in the villages, or equally in the larger cities?

Dir: In my experience, it is mostly in the villages.

I agree. Btw, has this director lived in Africa (and where did he visit in Africa?]

Bob to Freak: Freak, do you agree that the nudity is mostly in the villages? I'd like to know from your experience. When you indicated "Even in Cotonou (which is the captial) you'll see many of the women topless (like in the marketplace)" that seemed to confirm what the director said, and the impression I've picked up over the years that tribal nudity where it persists is mostly in villages. Can you please let us know if that is the case or not?

As I have stated in the past that is usually the case but even in large cities one finds public nudity.

So, even though the issue is about the smallest point made in a lengthy debate, I still judged it as worth checking. I have supported missionaries over the years, I have spoken at length with our missionary friends when they visit, our dear friends Mike and Loretta went to Africa for a couple years as missionaries, and right now I am working with Kenyan nationals who are translating The Plot into Swahili (kiswahili).

Great to hear.

And over the years, we have discussed this issue, and I have been under the impression that:
* Christian influence has made some significant cultural impact regarding modesty

Generally speaking yes.

* that while toplessness exists in many villages, there are also many places where women have taken to covering up

Yes.

* and that toplessness is much more common in villages which resist missionary activity than it is elsewhere

Generally speaking yes.

* and that toplessness is less common in the larger cities, which have a greater mix of influences, including that of Christianity, all of which can exert a wider influence on behavior.

In Contonou however you see alot of women topless in the market place.

At any rate, if I am convinced that I am wrong in all this (I'm still looking for more information), I would make a correction in the debate itself, so that I do not mislead others in the future who may read it, yet never see these threads.

Okay.

I don't understand why you would think that I would intentionally present false evidence?

My concern lies with this: "So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty." This isn't always true and that needs to be made clear. Are you willing to make that clairfication?

By the way, here is my last question for you (I really want your answers): how about tribal women who have become Christian, and have dressed modestly for a couple years. Do you think if a local man sees a Christian woman, or perhaps a few of them, and asks her (or them) to take off their tops, do you think he would have an easy go of it?

Depends on many issues, Africa is quite different--women are often not regarded as high as men. Even in the Christian church women are not highly regarded.

If not, wouldn't you say that this is some evidence that even though "tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless... missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty."

As I have stated, topless tribeswomen do NOT "readily" reassert their modesty. Even when they come to Christ , often times it is not "readily." This is simply the facts. I speak of someone who has lived and has traveled there dozens of times visiting 5 different nations.

Sincerely, -Bob Enyart

Sincerely-Freak

Questions for Bob:

Will you now acknowledge that this statement is not always true: "So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty." Will you make the clairfication?

Do you recognize that "readily" was a bad choice for a word to describe what happens when missionaries arrive in a village?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Bob Enyart
Freak, thank you for the conciliatory tone in your last post. God bless you, -Bob

As I have stated--I do apologize for calling you a liar. It was uncalled for. Looking forward to your response to my last post.

 

[Freak]

Bob, you'll have to join us sometime for one of our public Gospel meetings that we hold in Africa. Perhaps you could come to preach the Gospel. Then you'll see for yourself what I have been sharing.

 

[novice]

Originally posted by Freak
Bob, you'll have to join us sometime for one of our public Gospel meetings that we hold in Africa. Perhaps you could come to preach the Gospel. Then you'll see for yourself what I have been sharing.

And you can join Bob on his show and see what he is sharing!

 

[Aussie Thinker]

So Bob will waste his time writing a lengthy response and lots of research into a query about female modesty (one of the most minor and inane points raised in the whole debate) because the guy who raised it was a Christian !!!

But I have posed at least 20 problems with his arguments and he does not respond as I am an atheist…

Bob shouldn’t you spend more time trying to “save” us atheists than playing to those who are already saved.. or.. could it be it is a lot easier dealing with the gullible fools who already accept your “message” and enhance your bank balance ?

 

[novice]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
(one of the most minor and inane points raised in the whole debate)

I think I agree with you on that! :up:

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by novice
And you can join Bob on his show and see what he is sharing!

:thumb:

 

[Bob Enyart]

Freak, thank you for your very helpful responses. Only on my last question were you unresponsive. Let me run it by you again:

Bob to Freak: "Here is my last question for you [I really want your answer]: how about tribal women who have become Christian, and have dressed modestly for a couple years. Do you think if a local man sees a Christian woman, or perhaps a few of them, and asks her (or them) to take off their tops, do you think he would have an easy go of it?"

Freak’s response: "Depends on many issues, Africa is quite different--women are often not regarded as high as men. Even in the Christian church women are not highly regarded."

Freak, that is unresponsive. I believe it is in you to answer more directly. If Africa is quite different, then who better in this forum to answer the question than you? So, please answer. Thanks.

-Bob

 

[Flake]

Has the verbal stoning ceased? The last few pages of drivel has been an eye opener to say the least, all founded on an absurd premise.

 

[Flipper]

*sigh*

And who has the data to arbitrate on this gripping and critical question? There are approximately 3,000 recognized ethnic groups in Africa alone, each with their own customs, attitudes, and levels of religious and Western acculturation. Quite a few variables there.

Nevertheless, it seems reasonable to suggest that a higher percentage of people in the 3rd world who are christians are more concerned with the morality of nudity than those who are not. Especially if you understand the concept of eternal punishment and have been told that nudity is a sin.

That doesn't really prove Bob's earlier point though, now does it?

Enough with the nudity already.

 

[RogerB]

Originally posted by Flake
Thanks Rog, your never far away, no chance of getting lonely with you about is there.

You got that right, flake.

 

[attention]

Originally posted by Bob Enyart
Freak, thank you for your very helpful responses. Only on my last question were you unresponsive. Let me run it by you again:

Bob to Freak: "Here is my last question for you [I really want your answer]: how about tribal women who have become Christian, and have dressed modestly for a couple years. Do you think if a local man sees a Christian woman, or perhaps a few of them, and asks her (or them) to take off their tops, do you think he would have an easy go of it?"

Freak’s response: "Depends on many issues, Africa is quite different--women are often not regarded as high as men. Even in the Christian church women are not highly regarded."

Freak, that is unresponsive. I believe it is in you to answer more directly. If Africa is quite different, then who better in this forum to answer the question than you? So, please answer. Thanks.

-Bob

He already gave you the answer to your question.

The answer just shows you that your perception of "modesty" is, like many other values, is not universal, cause there are different cultural groups around the world, that have a different standard.

By the way, you don't need to go to far away countries to ackowledge that, just go to a naturist camp, they will show you the same. And since they have dealt with the same standard initially as you have, they can quite exactly tell you how they lost their shame for their nakedness.

And if you are interested how mankind not only lost their modesty of nakedness, but also how they developed historically, and made society to what it is now, I could advise you to read the book: Origins of the Family, private property and the state by Friedrich Engels.

 

[ZroKewl]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack
See how many times it takes you to get that sequence again.

It may take about as long as it will take you to get the point.

--ZK

 

[RogerB]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
So Bob will waste his time writing a lengthy response and lots of research into a query about female modesty (one of the most minor and inane points raised in the whole debate) because the guy who raised it was a Christian !!!

But I have posed at least 20 problems with his arguments and he does not respond as I am an atheist…

Bob shouldn’t you spend more time trying to “save” us atheists than playing to those who are already saved.. or.. could it be it is a lot easier dealing with the gullible fools who already accept your “message” and enhance your bank balance ?

If you were actually here seeking the truth you might be worth the effort.

Bank balance? :kookoo:

 

[RogerB]

Originally posted by ZroKewl
It may take about as long as it will take you to get the point.

--ZK

That's assuming you have a point besides, "I'm right, you're wrong, nana nana boo boo."

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Bob Enyart
Freak, thank you for your very helpful responses. Only on my last question were you unresponsive.

I also noticed you were unresponsive to a few of my questions. More on that later. Besides, I wasn't unresponsive I believe I responded to your questions.

Bob to Freak: "Here is my last question for you [I really want your answer]: how about tribal women who have become Christian, and have dressed modestly for a couple years. Do you think if a local man sees a Christian woman, or perhaps a few of them, and asks her (or them) to take off their tops, do you think he would have an easy go of it?"

There is no easy yes or no answer to this question. As I have stated, it depends on many factors. In the villages the men would probably have an easier time getting the woman to obey then in the city. Remember, the African mindset is quite different then in the Western world. Women are not regarded as high as men. Even in the Christian church women are not highly regarded.

If Africa is quite different, then who better in this forum to answer the question than you? So, please answer.

I agree so in light of this fact....I'd like for to respond to my....

Questions for Bob:

Will you now acknowledge, in light of the facts, that this statement (that you have made) is not always true: "So tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless, but missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty." Will you make the clarification, Bob?

Do you recognize that "readily" was a bad choice for a word to describe what happens when missionaries arrive in a village? The facts tell us otherwise. So your statement is misleading and untrue.

These missionaries you have referred to---have they lived in Africa for any extended period of time? What nations did they visit? Have they visited many tribes (which ones) and many villages?


Thanks in advance.

 

[Freak]

There's more....

There's more....

Bob stated in his most recent debate with Zakath:

We conceal reproduction and the expulsion of waste (which even prostitutes and pornographers do in their private lives), and then we also cover our nakedness with clothes, and reside in private domiciles.

Bob, as I mentioned earlier to you, I have a adopted brother who is Nigerian (he's a dedicated pastor). Prior to us meeting him (in his teen years) he lived in the worse of conditions (as do many of the Africans). He didn't have a bathroom. He used the streets to expel his waste. In fact, it is common, for many of the Africans not to even worry about concealing their explusion of waste. Why worry about concealing when you can't. They simply use the streets as their bathroom. Conditions are that bad in many areas. I, my traveling companions, & my family have seen this in Benin, Nigeria, Ghana, and Togo. I have witnessed Africans simply (men & women & children) stopping on the side of the road and expelling their waste with no concern for concealment.

This is not an African phenomena either. I have seen this southeast Asia and in parts of the Carribean (I just got back from a trip to Haiti). Perhaps, you should have prefaced this portion with the fact that you are speaking of the Western World. Bob, I would encourage you to exhibit some caution in throwing these generalizations around. Ok?

 

[Freak]

Bob stated: Since animals do not have spirits, they have no context from which to be embarrassed about relieving themselves or reproduction, and readily do both in public. A male horse pulling a carriage of tourists in Denver will defecate in front of his favorite mare and the rest of the world, while a human being would die a thousand deaths emotionally before doing likewise.

As I have proven this (see the bold) is simply untrue, Bob. People in the third world defecate in front of (even complete strangers) someone without any shame. This is their life.

 

[Flake]

Re: There's more....

Re: There's more....

Originally posted by Freak
He used the streets to expel his waste. In fact, it is common, for many of the Africans not to even worry about concealing their explusion of waste. Why worry about concealing when you can't.

This is not an African phenomena either

It is worth pointing out that medieval European history cites waste expulsion onto and in the streets as a common affair, open sewers caused disease and one thing led to another and the sewers where gradually upgraded, thats progress for you.
Not to mention the hard marching crusading armies riddled with dysentery who simply cut a hole in the pants so they could deficate continuously while marching to war in the name of god.

 

[Freak]

And there's more....

And there's more....

Bob also stated: Even nudists use private restrooms and claim to conceal their sexual behavior from relatives and other onlookers.

Again this is simply untrue. I remember driving with some friends down a street outside Kingston, Jamaica back in 1989, and seeing a a totally nude man & woman having sex on the side of the road with no concern of onlookers.