Freak (I must admit, it seems weird to address a Christian that way),
I've emailed a few missionaries/local pastors in Africa asking their opinoins on this question. I realize that you expect that I should take your understanding as the last word on the topic, but I don't even know you. Also, these missionaries are in another time zone, and I imagine are busy, and since they have no idea of how desperate you are for me to respond to you, they probably have no sense of urgency about the matter. I did manage to reach the long-time executive director of the Things To Come missions board in Indianapolis who has traveled to Africa. From my phone conversation with him this morning:
Dir: “Children who grow up in a culture without clothes of course become conditioned to live that way. But when a person is saved, I will tell you this, that modesty does come back.
Inserted from Freak's Post: "Yes, a life changes (including one's modesty) when you come to Christ..."
Bob to Freak: That sounds a lot like what the missions director said.
From Freak again: "Yes, a life changes (including one's modesty) when you come to Christ, but the fact remains that pagan topless tribeswomen do not readily assert their modesty.
Bob to Freak: "do not readily assert their modesty" except for when they are saved, as you and the director pointed out.
Bob to Dir: Is such public nudity mostly in the villages, or equally in the larger cities?
Dir: In my experience, it is mostly in the villages.
Bob: Why is there more modesty in the cities?
Dir: I think that is because of influence. The city has a testimony to the world.”
Bob to Freak: Freak, do you agree that the nudity is mostly in the villages? I'd like to know from your experience. When you indicated "Even in Cotonou (which is the captial) you'll see many of the women topless (like in the marketplace)" that seemed to confirm what the director said, and the impression I've picked up over the years that tribal nudity where it persists is mostly in villages. Can you please let us know if that is the case or not?
Also, when you accuse me of lying about this you mean that I am not mistaken, but I knowingly made an untrue statement intending to deceive. Freak, you wrote:
* "I am informing Bob that his claim... is an outright lie."
* "this lie must be exposed."
* "Bob being exposed as being one promoting a lie."
* "This is a bold face lie! Repent Bob."
Of course I couldn't possibly looking into every claim in these threads that disagrees with the arguments I am making. For example, Jeremiah commented obviously referring to DNA and genetics that humans can never reproduce and a woman give birth to a fish, and then bmyers countered that "Strictly speaking, 'science' …has not 'proved'" Jeremiah's claim, and that a human mother giving birth to a fish is not impossible but just "very, very unlikely!" So, many of the disagreements in the threads are worthless. I took yours as worth investigating because you are a Christian, and because you were speaking from firsthand knowledge. So, even though the issue is about the smallest point made in a lengthy debate, I still judged it as worth checking. I have supported missionaries over the years, I have spoken at length with our missionary friends when they visit, our dear friends Mike and Loretta went to Africa for a couple years as missionaries, and right now I am working with Kenyan nationals who are translating The Plot into Swahili (kiswahili). And over the years, we have discussed this issue, and I have been under the impression that:
* Christian influence has made some significant cultural impact regarding modesty
* that while toplessness exists in many villages, there are also many places where women have taken to covering up
* and that toplessness is much more common in villages which resist missionary activity than it is elsewhere
* and that toplessness is less common in the larger cities, which have a greater mix of influences, including that of Christianity, all of which can exert a wider influence on behavior.
At any rate, if I am convinced that I am wrong in all this (I'm still looking for more information), I would make a correction in the debate itself, so that I do not mislead others in the future who may read it, yet never see these threads. I don't understand why you would think that I would intentionally present false evidence? And if you are incline just to think that I am a liar, even then, why would I present lies that could so easily be exposed? Yes, I know that Nat'l Geographic (the liberals who have stolen the cultural treasures of so many nations) is obsessed with photographing naked women in the name of culture. Did you really think that I was saying that there is no longer any public nudity in the world? When we go to Hana to visit our friends in Maui, we have to avoid one beach because the natives (I mean the tourists from Cincinnati and Dallas) sunbathe topless there. You didn't hurt my feelings accusing me of lying (unfortunately, I have grown extremely thick skin), but I just don't understand the glee with which you have relished in this matter.
Finally Freak, you wrote, "If that is what he meant [that women influenced by the Gospel reassert their modesty] then he could have easily explained that to me but instead he played the game--let me check your list of nations you have visited (that kind of thing). It seemed to me (and others by the way) that Bob was merely trying to avoid the truth."
Freak, in my first question to you, I wanted to find out if you would refer to the larger cities, or mostly to villages. That's why I asked you for countries, and for locales, in that first question. For, if you told me that toplessness is extremely common in all the major cities in the swath of Africa you've traveled to, then I would have to look more carefully at my impression of a cultural difference between the cities vs. the villages. Also, I thought I might be able to check with missionaries in the same locales to get their input. By the way, here is my last question for you (I really want your answers): how about tribal women who have become Christian, and have dressed modestly for a couple years. Do you think if a local man sees a Christian woman, or perhaps a few of them, and asks her (or them) to take off their tops, do you think he would have an easy go of it? If not, wouldn't you say that this is some evidence that even though "tribesmen can adopt minimalist clothing and condition their women to go topless... missionaries find that women in such cultures readily reassert their modesty."
So if I become convinced that my understanding is incorrect, and that my friend who is the director of this missions board is also incorrect (which of course is a possibility), then I will note that in the debate and post a correction here.
Sincerely, -Bob Enyart
