Baptism of Water for Babies and Children

[jamie]

This directly points to an intriguing question. What is the purpose of baptism?

Marriage.

 

[jsanford108]

lol , that scripture does not say any infants were baptized. How do you know if the youngest child was not 30 ? YOU DON'T.

So the reason it isn't proof is because it doesn't explicitly say "babies" or "infants?" Interesting, because no where is baptism describes as explicitly "immersion." Nor is the word "Trinity."

To add on even more, your point goes against logic. Why would it say "household" and the youngest be 30? That doesn't make logical or rational sense by modern standards/statistics, let alone the ancient standards/statistics, where the common age of marriage was before 15. The age of puberty for males made one a "man," no longer a child, making him no longer part of a "household," rather becoming his own "household."

Your own point cripples itself (logically, rationally, culturally, and biblically).


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[jsanford108]

Marriage.

I don't quite understand your point. The purpose of baptism is "Marriage?"


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[dodge]

So the reason it isn't proof is because it doesn't explicitly say "babies" or "infants?" Interesting, because no where is baptism describes as explicitly "immersion." Nor is the word "Trinity."

To add on even more, your point goes against logic. Why would it say "household" and the youngest be 30? That doesn't make logical or rational sense by modern standards/statistics, let alone the ancient standards/statistics, where the common age of marriage was before 15. The age of puberty for males made one a "man," no longer a child, making him no longer part of a "household," rather becoming his own "household."

Your own point cripples itself (logically, rationally, culturally, and biblically).


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The very word baptize means immerse.

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
βαπτίζω baptízō, bap-tid'-zo; from a derivative of G911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:—Baptist, baptize, wash.

Would you fully immerse a baby under the water ? NOPE.

 

[God's Truth]

Did Jesus need to repent to be baptized? Or was he baptized to fulfill all righteousness?

He was not a baby and he said repent or perish.

 

[God's Truth]

Heaven was not up there until after Jesus' resurrection. For humans that died the place they went was called paradise the same place Jesus went for 3 days after He was crucified. You might want to actually read your bible.


Funny stuff ! I don't believe the rich man that was in torment thought it was so humorous.

Jesus went to prison/hell after he died.

He went there to preach the gospel.

However, when he ascended into heaven, he took those who were with Abraham and they went to heaven.

 

[God's Truth]

He never sinned, which is why he did not need to repent to become baptized. The same applies to babies, who although are conceived into the same sinful nature that all are, they have not yet sinned, so there is no need for them to repent to become baptized. Baptism is simply a fulfillment of righteousness that not only Jesus Christ had to do, but also the elect, which includes babies and children. We must all become baptized in water, and also in spirit.

Babies are born without knowing God, they need to be taught about Him. They also are, like all humans, inclined to negativity.

You hinder people from getting saved when they are baptized as babies.

I was baptized at 2 months of age, had my first holy communion, and confirmation by the time I was about 12.
I was taught I had already fulfilled my requirement to God. I was also contrite for my sins, and never understood that I have to actually obey everything, not just some things.

We have to repent of our sins to be saved. Water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit must include repentance.
It took many years of my life to figure that out, and many years of my life could have been better if I had known the Way.

 

[dodge]

Jesus went to prison/hell after he died.

He went there to preach the gospel.

However, when he ascended into heaven, he took those who were were Abraham and they went to heaven.

Jesus told the thief being crucified with Him " today you will be with me in paradise", which was in the center of the earth at that time.

 

[God's Truth]

First of all, David does not state that the guilt of Adam's sin was imputed to him. Instead, when we examine what is said we can understand that David was deeply troubled for his sins and wicked behavior and convicted of his guilt:

"For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps.51:3-5).​

Here we see that David was acknowledging total responsibly for his actions and he was not placing the blame upon Adam or anyone else. He expressed his repentance in an extreme manner, using figurative language to express the idea that he had been sinful ever since he could remember.

After all, not everything that is said in Psalm 51 can be understood literally. Let us look at what else is said in the same Psalm:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice" (Ps.51:5-8).​

If all of these verses are to be taken literally then verse seven can be evidence that men are cleansed from their sins "with hyssop." Verse eight can also be taken in a literal sense to teach that broken bones rejoice!

On the other hand, there is absolutely no reason to think that the following verse should not be taken literally:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

If a baby comes out of the womb dead in sin then it is impossible that it could be said that baby is fearfully and wonderfully made!

Again, babies are born without the knowledge of God and inclined to negativity.

They must be taught about God.

Even in the desert, there was an age of accountability. God allowed those of a certain age to enter the promised land and would not let those older enter.

We all must repent of our sins to be saved and that is not just being sorry for your sins.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus told the thief being crucified with Him " today you will be with me in paradise", which was in the center of the earth at that time.

I believe there were two parts though. There was prison/hell, and then there were those who were with Abraham. Do you agree?

 

[dodge]

I believe there were two parts though. There was prison/hell, and then there were those who were Abraham. Do you agree?

Yes, that is what is Jesus taught with Lazarus and the rich man. The gulf separated Abraham and those that were condemned such as the rich man who was in torment in flames.

I believe it was more like hell/paradise.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, that is what is Jesus taught with Lazarus and the rich man. The gulf separated Abraham and those that were condemned such as the rich man who was in torment in flames.

I believe it was more like hell/paradise.

I am glad that we have agreement.

 

[jamie]

I don't quite understand your point. The purpose of baptism is "Marriage?"

Yes. Marriage to Jesus Christ.

 

[jsanford108]

The very word baptize means immerse.

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
βαπτίζω baptízō, bap-tid'-zo; from a derivative of G911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:—Baptist, baptize, wash.

Would you fully immerse a baby under the water ? NOPE.

This is an amended definition. Note the origin language, and its subsequent definition. The actual definition is "to immerse, sprinkle, or pour, by means of spiritual cleansing." (Hebrew Dictionary)

Also, worthy of note; why not answer the questions and charges I pose against your claims? Rather than answer or provide a rebuttal, you add another point or claim, thus attempting to bypass questioning.

Note: my beliefs, and that of the Catholic Church, are supported by the Jewish definition, as well as, dictionary.com, Webster, etc. I have also provided logic, biblical verses, rational conclusions from verses, as well as, early Christian teachings (I do not recall if the early Christians post was a response to you or some other; please forgive me for this lapse of memory). I have also highlighted flaws of logic and reason, as well as, gaps in your claims. Yet, none have been refuted.


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[jsanford108]

Yes. Marriage to Jesus Christ.

I thought that is what you intended, I just wanted clarification so to formulate my response.

How does baptism serve as a marriage to Christ? Is it both faith that binds us to Him?

Baptism, through various verses in the Bible, is called the new covenant circumcision. Circumcision was not a marriage to God; rather a binding to Him. Circumcision was a "marking" to/for God. Thus, would not the "new circumcision" be a marking to/for Christ? What allows Christ to be the bridegroom to His Church (in this sense I denote all Christians) is our fullness of faith.


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[dodge]

This is an amended definition. Note the origin language, and its subsequent definition. The actual definition is "to immerse, sprinkle, or pour, by means of spiritual cleansing." (Hebrew Dictionary)

Also, worthy of note; why not answer the questions and charges I pose against your claims? Rather than answer or provide a rebuttal, you add another point or claim, thus attempting to bypass questioning.

Note: my beliefs, and that of the Catholic Church, are supported by the Jewish definition, as well as, dictionary.com, Webster, etc. I have also provided logic, biblical verses, rational conclusions from verses, as well as, early Christian teachings (I do not recall if the early Christians post was a response to you or some other; please forgive me for this lapse of memory). I have also highlighted flaws of logic and reason, as well as, gaps in your claims. Yet, none have been refuted.


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lol, it is you that has the amended reading. Baptidzo means immersion, but then again men never want to do what God says to do they want to do it their own way.

 

[cgaviria]

Babies are born without knowing God, they need to be taught about Him. They also are, like all humans, inclined to negativity.

You hinder people from getting saved when they are baptized as babies.

I was baptized at 2 months of age, had my first holy communion, and confirmation by the time I was about 12.
I was taught I had already fulfilled my requirement to God. I was also contrite for my sins, and never understood that I have to actually obey everything, not just some things.

We have to repent of our sins to be saved. Water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit must include repentance.
It took many years of my life to figure that out, and many years of my life could have been better if I had known the Way.

No, it is you who hinders babies from getting delivered by withholding baptism. If repentance was necessary before baptism, then unborn babies nor children would've received the baptism of the holy spirit. Yet repentance is indeed necessary if as an adult you are in sin, because you cannot receive the baptism of the holy spirit nor the baptism of water while you are sinning, hence why you must repent first. Yet babies do not commit sins, hence why it is not necessary for them to repent, but rather, the parents who have become delivered and have been baptized both in water and in spirit, can also impart impart the blessings they received unto their children. What good parent would withhold the baptism of water from their own child on the premise that they cannot yet choose?

 

[cgaviria]

He was not a baby and he said repent or perish.

Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented. (Matthew 3:15 [NIV])

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented. (Matthew 3:15 [NIV])

Water baptism is a ceremony, it is the time one makes the pledge to God that he will live for Him.

Babies cannot do that.

See 1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

When a person gets water baptized, standing in the water the believer falls back, as if dead; then, the believer goes under the water, buried; then, the believer rises up out of the water, raises up to live a new life.

Romans explain this perfectly.

Romans 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Did you read what Paul says? Paul says don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Babies do not know.

Infants cannot make a promise. Moreover, no one, not even the infant’s parents can make a promise for their child, nor can anyone make a promise for anyone else.
Notice that when children were brought to Jesus and the disciples, the disciples turned them away?
Jesus said let them come to him, but he did not say to baptize them, he placed his hands on them.

Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

 

[God's Truth]

No, it is you who hinders babies from getting delivered by withholding baptism. If repentance was necessary before baptism, then unborn babies nor children would've received the baptism of the holy spirit. Yet repentance is indeed necessary if as an adult you are in sin, because you cannot receive the baptism of the holy spirit nor the baptism of water while you are sinning, hence why you must repent first. Yet babies do not commit sins, hence why it is not necessary for them to repent, but rather, the parents who have become delivered and have been baptized both in water and in spirit, can also impart impart the blessings they received unto their children. What good parent would withhold the baptism of water from their own child on the premise that they cannot yet choose?

Babies do sin, they are human and think wrong sometimes, they think negatively. They might not even feel loved by their own parents. They might take things wrongly. They do not yet understand to forgive, etc. They do not know God and need to be taught about God as all people do.

Infant baptism interferes with people knowing and obeying the Truth. Infant baptism confuses non-Christians and those who want to be a Christian. Many people baptized as an infant do not understand why they do not really know the Lord. Those baptized as infants do not usually walk the path that Jesus teaches…unless they learn more of the truth later. Infant baptism has been confusing millions of people for years. It is more serious of an issue that most don't realize.