ECT Baptised babies can still be killed, or they can still burn in hell for their sins.
- Thread starter Capricorn
- Start date
No, I know nothing of the Mormons, nor anything to do with their theology.
However, the question of procreation is still key, central and important to the future biological survival of any country - Since God created the earth to be inhabited by humans and other animals - and the will to survive is intrinsic to our human nature.
Therefore, it must be seen as a significant penalty for any country to forfeit its long term biological survival.
However, such a forfeiture seems to be the prescribed penalty for any nation which has sinned against God: Jeremiah 18:1-10, Romans 9:22.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That is not happening today, is it?
Rosenritter
New member
Assuming that you have a "hell" and "not hell" definition that is stark and binary (on or off, in or out, yes or no) then at what magical moment does an "innocent child" that has salvation and the promise of everlasting life without the need of a Savior transition from the "no need of a savior not going to hell" status to the "bound for hell if I die this moment" status?
That's a logical question based on your premise (from which it shares validity.) If that question sounds strange, then there might be something wrong with one of your earlier assumptions.
Rosenritter
New member
If all babies were "innocent" and worthy of Eternal Life without need of a savior then God who is willing that all men be saved would just slay us all, every one, before we reach that magical moment when we are no longer innocent and in danger.
Rosenritter
New member
If infant salvation is true, then if you really love your child you would kill them all as they are born and send them to heaven for sure. Why risk their soul on the scale of eternal life? We all know the odds of what will happen if they pass that alleged stage of innocence, right? Statistically?
Rosenritter
New member
He was not made just like his brethren in ALL things. Such as the humanity of a physical father, for one. I dare say that other exceptions apply... such as having access to wisdom and memory of God, and of his predetermined eternal character, which is something that none of us have ever had that type of access to.
Rosenritter
New member
Acts 2:34-35 KJV
(34) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
(35) Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
I remember one time in a Southern Baptist church when they came to that part of the scripture, and they simply read it while omitting the "NOT" and kept right on going as if nothing had happened...
This will happen at the End of Time.
The End Times is the here and now, but it also refers to the Great Tribulation in the future when entire nations will be destroyed.
Since Romans 9:22 is in the New Testament we therefore know that entire nations can still be destroyed in the Age of the new covenant.
The NT hasn’t changed all the rules stated in the Old Testament; especially concerning the potential destruction of entire countries in Jeremiah 18:1-10.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The verse is obviously not talking about the way He was made but the end result of how He was made, like His brethren in "all things."
"For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:16-17).
In his commentary on this verse Matthew Poole wrote that "To be made like unto his brethren; a man having a true body and soul like them in every thing, which was necessary to make him a complete Redeemer; agreeable to them in all things necessary to their nature, qualities, conditions, and affections; like them in sorrows, griefs, pains, death."
According to Poole the Lord Jesus' body and soul was just like the body and soul of every person.
Albert Barnes sees the same truth, writing that "Wherefore in all things - In respect to his body; his soul; his rank and character. There was a propriety that he should be like them, and should partake of their nature."
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You should have made that clear in your initial post.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So in what way are infants not innocent?
The Lord Jesus' words indicate that little children are innocent and if they die at that point in their lives will not go to hell:
"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).
binyamin7
Active member
That Scripture is showing that David did not speak of himself, since he went into Abrahams bosom/ paradise awaiting the Lord to take Him to "heaven", but that was a clear prophecy of the HaMashiach (Christ). Certainly you don't think David was banished into sheol.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Death proves sin. No one who dies is innocent. No innocent dies. Those sinful children who die are either elect, predestined to be HIS bride or non-elect, condemned already. It has nothing to do with innocence. Only one innocent child has been born in all of earth's history.
And, I agree, baptism does not save anyone from any sin at all.
ttruscott
Well-known member
such as these' cannot refer to innocence as they die and death is paid only for sin. Find some other attribute of children to hang on this verse, innocence is denied.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Babies are without God and without hope as much as anyone who has not done Romans 10:9-10.
As is pointed out in another post, young children of believing parents although too young to understand and do Romans 10:9-10 are sanctified by a believing parent or parents
There is no hellfire for eternal punishment, it is garbage dump where flames consumes garbage, not live humans.
The flames last as long as there is yet garbage to burn, till all is consumed, thus it is referred to everlasting, for it lasts ever as long as not all has been consumed
No, the passage is specific reference about David and his child, but there is no explicit statement in the Bible to say that this is a “general rule” which applies to “all people”.
Your interpretation is simply by way of conjecture, which is not a valid interpretation of the Scripture.
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glorydaz
Well-known member
This sounds like the undertones of original sin. Under that concept from the Catholic point of view. We are born guilty. Baptism washes that stain away. But want sent the original sin Adam and Eve’s punishment banishment from the Garden, and removal of immortality? The result was death. So in my mind the argument is as false because an infant has not reach the age of understanding.
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