Atonement without blood according to Freelight.

[Lazy afternoon]

Freelight

Hi LA,

One of my hallmark thread here, which is no long extant (an older thread that was purged during the last system upgrade, as they were deleting major volumes of oldest material) was 'Atonement without blood' - for those who were not around years back to read any of its content,...lots of evidence was expounded upon showing there is atonement without the necessity for the shedding of blood in the OT. Some questions - Would a loving God demand a 'blood sacrifice' of an innocent man to save anyone, that this gesture would somehow move him to direct his love and mercy upon him to forgive him? God couldn't save or forgive you just by you coming to him in prayer, repenting of your sins, and committing you life to do his will??? He needs BLOOD? He needs another to suffer death? KILLING innocent animals and shedding their blood is cruel enough, but then assuming the blood of another human being has special healing powers to atone for your sins, that is even more astounding, especially when this violates the universal law of self-responsibility, where each soul suffers and dies for its own sins, and that no other person can atone for another sins. See Ezekiel 18 for starters, then consult your own conscience on this,...and review basic spiritual laws. - I understand the 'concept' but question its efficacy.

I did write an original response to your inquiry, in draft-mode, and will send if you want to discuss it more, or at least to really research and question if a 'blood-sacrfice' is valid, logical, rational, let alone efficacious. This will challenge religious beliefs here to their core, and only the truly courageous person will bravely take this subject on, and seek out the actual truth. The subject has many aspects and dimensions to it, so it would merit its very own thread again. I could create a new thread with my same old original title, but we'll see, I've got alot on my plate. With this said, a few pointers to consider before I close here, since your question could be just an honest curious inquiry, but not sure the motive behind it, and what assumptions or conclusions would be expected in your 'reaction', critical and judgmental of my answer

So to sum up a few notations now -

1) I dot NOT believe that blood-shed, or the killing of any animal/person is absolutely necessary in order that one's sins be atoned for. The blood-atonement concept can even be refuted and challenged in the OT itself, even though a sacrificial system was set up, and even though the concept-belief by analogy is carried over into the NT. - I dont worship a carnal or blood-thirsty 'god', no sorry. - not that I have anything against pagans, heck, some aspects of my theology are neo-pagan,...but blood sacrifice concepts are old pagan belief carry-overs, AND EVEN STILL....the outward sacrifice is SYMBOLIC of the soul itself surrendering to God, the blood being symbolic of the life-force(soul) in its yielding all to the Great Spirit. All these outward gestures and rituals are dramas depicting the inward movement of the soul Godward. That is all.

2) Blood does not save me from God's wrath, my own repentance and sincere re-turning to God, invites his natural embrace of me in the arms of LOVE. Does love need to slay animals or slaughter a human being to encourage itself to redeem and restore me? - again, all outward physical sacrificical acts are symbolic of the inward gesture of the soul in its repentance towards 'God',....sadly at the expense of animals in some belief-systems, and even more grave and barbaric....in human sacrifice which is AGAINST OT teaching and principle! "Thou shalt not murder". - even the age-old universal doctors oath holds! - "do no harm".

* Now to any who will rise up in passionate rebuttal and alarm at the thoughts shared above and JUDGE my eternal salvation, condemning me to hell, you will have to bear that before the presence of God in the light of his truth on this and all religious matters, since I have no fear in presenting the values and ideals of truth, love, beauty, goodness and real justice....themes and ideals at the foremost before any lover and seeker of truth. If one choose chooses to believe in the efficacy of blood-atonement, that is their perogative, but it is still just a 'belief' with varying degrees of effect, determined by one's own 'faith'. - it is wholly subjective.

I will sit on my original response and determine when I will share it next or start a new thread on 'Atonement without blood'. Another spin on the word 'atonement' is 'at-one-ment'.....being 'at-one' with God - a simply sincere repentance, a re-turning of heart, mind and soul to 'God' is all that is essential, which includes a return to RIGHT DOING. - this is the only true atonement, the return to righteousness (right-doing, doing God's will, loyalty to truth, obedience to love). - love is the fulfilling of the law.

* With all that said, there is a symbolic meaning of 'blood' and its relation to the soul (the life of the flesh is in the blood), and the soul's relationship to God, wherein the 'blood of Jesus' has potential and transforming power, - I do not deny or reject the power of Jesus BLOOD. I do however on certain moral and philosophical grounds, some points already mentioned above, question certain beliefs about 'blood-atonement' and its applications. Do note. What avails is the giving of one's soul, in surrender to God, surrending the soul-body to the Spirit, which is a kind of 'sacrifice' of 'self' to the Greater Self of God in service to LIFE. - we can explore the dynamics of 'sacrifice' and symbolism of 'blood'. More to come. - a final thought from Isaiah below -

God Has Had Enough

10 Hear the word of the Lord,
You rulers of Sodom;
Give ear to the instruction of our God,
You people of Gomorrah.

11 “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle;
And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.

12 “When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires [e]of you this trampling of My courts?

13 “Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.

14 “I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.

15 “So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are covered with blood.

16 “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,

17 Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.

Again,...you can shed all the blood you want (choose your perfered religious custom or traditional means...many religions have animal sacrifice), have faith even in the blood of a god-man, demi-god or avatar (wonderful, lots of interesting correlaries there)....but only your real repentance before God is what AVAILS. 'God' is consistent,....he said DO good, DO what is right,...there are no substitutes!

I thank Grosnick to stay out of this thread altogether and mind his own business.

I will post piece by piece in the next post and Freelight can reply.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

One of my hallmark thread here, which is no long extant (an older thread that was purged during the last system upgrade, as they were deleting major volumes of oldest material) was 'Atonement without blood' - for those who were not around years back to read any of its content,...lots of evidence was expounded upon showing there is atonement without the necessity for the shedding of blood in the OT. Some questions - Would a loving God demand a 'blood sacrifice' of an innocent man to save anyone, that this gesture would somehow move him to direct his love and mercy upon him to forgive him? God couldn't save or forgive you just by you coming to him in prayer, repenting of your sins, and committing you life to do his will??? He needs BLOOD? He needs another to suffer death? KILLING innocent animals and shedding their blood is cruel enough, but then assuming the blood of another human being has special healing powers to atone for your sins, that is even more astounding, especially when this violates the universal law of self-responsibility, where each soul suffers and dies for its own sins, and that no other person can atone for another sins. See Ezekiel 18 for starters, then consult your own conscience on this,...and review basic spiritual laws. - I understand the 'concept' but question its efficacy.

Christ's sacrifice was unto death.

While you may say you can atone for your own sins by your own obedience, the Bible does not teach that.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

He needs BLOOD? He needs another to suffer death? KILLING innocent animals and shedding their blood is cruel enough, but then assuming the blood of another human being has special healing powers to atone for your sins, that is even more astounding,

Obviously you have never been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, or you would not suggest the blood had healing powers to atone for sin.

but rather you would understand that the blood shed was because He gave His life to the max to rescue those who believe in Him from the unavoidable sentence of death because of their own sin.

It is much like the head master who made a law (and God did not just make up laws)that the next person who broke something would be expelled from school if he did not pay for it, but knowing that a poor child had broken something valuable and could not pay for it, the headmaster paid it himself.

The shedding of the blood of animals was necessary for a repentant sinner to be forgiven who lived under the law. It was not because God is cruel to animals as you suggest.

God's disgust with their sacrifices was because they did not repent of their sin, and they thought they could stand forgiven before God by the blood sacrifices alone.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


However God accepted the sacrifices of many people, when they repented, as they gave up to God something of great value to them. It was not like today.

The sacrifice of Christ and His resurrection made it possible to bring in a greater and more perfect covenant which the believers can only access the benefits of, through the death of themselves as well, but like Christ it was death in the self life of the heart and soul, before death of the flesh itself.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

LA

 

[daqq]

How do you understand the following highly disputed passage LA?

Acts 20:28 KJV
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:28 YLT
28 'Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood,

Acts 20:28 ASV
28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.

Or whichever translation or rendering you prefer?

 

[marhig]

I thank Grosnick to stay out of this thread altogether and mind his own business.

I will post piece by piece in the next post and Freelight can reply.

LA

Hi LA

For some reason I'm not able to comment on this on the other thread as the reply tab has disappeared on there.

Anyway, I don't believe that the natural crucifixion saves, the blood is symbolic, as is the seed, and the water, and the sword etc. We are saved by the grace of God through faith. Not by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. Death doesn't save, life saves the only death God wants to see is the death to our flesh and sin. He doesn't need a human sacrifice to save. And he especially doesn't need to come to earth himself and be murdered by wicked men to save anyone!

Jesus was saving before he was crucified, and he said that he had finished the work that his father had given him to do before he went on the cross. And his work was to bare witness to the truth, to preach the gospel. Preaching the ministry of reconciliation and glorify God and save as many as he could, as many as would believe on his word. His work was not to die on the cross, that was murder by wicked men!

John 18

Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

 

[marhig]

Christ's sacrifice was unto death.

While you may say you can atone for your own sins by your own obedience, the Bible does not teach that.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.



Obviously you have never been reconciled to God by the death of His Son, or you would not suggest the blood had healing powers to atone for sin.

but rather you would understand that the blood shed was because He gave His life to the max to rescue those who believe in Him from the unavoidable sentence of death because of their own sin.

It is much like the head master who made a law (and God did not just make up laws)that the next person who broke something would be expelled from school if he did not pay for it, but knowing that a poor child had broken something valuable and could not pay for it, the headmaster paid it himself.

The shedding of the blood of animals was necessary for a repentant sinner to be forgiven who lived under the law. It was not because God is cruel to animals as you suggest.

God's disgust with their sacrifices was because they did not repent of their sin, and they thought they could stand forgiven before God by the blood sacrifices alone.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


However God accepted the sacrifices of many people, when they repented, as they gave up to God something of great value to them. It was not like today.

The sacrifice of Christ and His resurrection made it possible to bring in a greater and more perfect covenant which the believers can only access the benefits of, through the death of themselves as well, but like Christ it was death in the self life of the heart and soul, before death of the flesh itself.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

LA

If we're reconciled to God by the death of his son, then we should be dying too, denying ourselves, baring our cross and following Jesus

Jesus was suffering long before he got to the cross, he was denying Satan continually, he was tried by fire, tempted every day yet he never sinned. He bore his cross daily, suffered and he was dead to his flesh and being dead to his flesh he was alive in the Spirit, he was in the fullness of God bodily, he denied himself, and he did the will of God, glorifying God and bringing life to all those who believed in him and followed him.

Christ Jesus came as a living sacrifice, and he sacrificed his whole life to God and denied himself not living by his will but living by the will of God, being the perfect example for us to follow.

Also, look in the verses you have quoted, in Romans 5:10 it says that we are saved by the life of Jesus not his death. Death doesn't save, life saves.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Continuing to release Part 2 here, which is mostly (with additional editing) my first response to LA's original question - we continue -


LA,

You may have recalled one of my charter threads 'Atonement without blood' (no longer extant) - where I explore and expound upon the FACT that atonement was attained by ways other than a 'blood sacrifice' in the OT (and it was also only effacious for unintentional sins!), and even today among Jews all that is essential for atonement is 'repentance' via prayer, good works, return to right-doing. The fact is that 'repentance' and 're-turning' to God in this manner is all that is essential. - see what Jesus and his original apostles taught - "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand".

Could Jesus Death atone for anyone sins? (Rabbi Singer)

The slaughtering of innocent animals, much less an innocent or pure human being is not 'necessary' or 'required' (even cruel and immoral) for salvation from sin or to save one from the fictitious wrath of God. I've shared and questioned this 'belief' in my former thread of old, and in other places, but not as prominently as of recent, since the subject has not come within the scope of any recent discussions. This should be of no surprise for those familiar with my past writings,..but SADLY here, many judge me from just a few commentaries they read from a few select threads, without even knowning the great breadth, depth and scope of my 'theology' and research amassed thus far. Many are fairly clueless and their posts show it. And even so in any pursual of truth,...viewpoints are subject to change.

This does not affect the value or import of what I share concerning the subjects being treated here, since they are evaluated and engaged in the exchange of discussion, weighed upon their own merits or demerits. Ideas, principles, values, meanings, concepts, beliefs are to be considered philosophically, and on another level for their practicality. You might discover that alot of theology, especially of a mere 'doctrinal' nature, doesnt even touch the latter level of practicality, beyond various dogmatic assumptions and 'posturing' (folks getting stuck in various positionalities instead of being free in spirit). - and still all doctrines must be considered for their ethical or moral value/consistency, among other qualifiers.

I could say more, for there is much more to say. Truth has no apologies, since 'blood' in and of itself cannot save, much less cleanse anyone from 'sin',...the only efficacy of it is what is accepted or imagined in one's own imagination by 'faith', and what the 'blood' means or symbolizes. - its all subjective. Blood does not have any magical sin-cleaning power to it, beyond what one invests in it. Granted, the blood of Jesus has alot of symbolic power, and I respect it. I value all the hidden meaning behind religious symbols and emblems, even taking their substance on inner spiritual levels, so do know their potential powers. Most of us mystics do. However the critical questioning of the concept or belief behind 'blood atonement' remains, since God was at one time disgusted of such, it became a stench in his nostrils! - all the temple sacrifices offered for a million years cannot help you, unless/until you REPENT and live a life of purity, and commit to DO God's will. - you are responsible for your own 'sins' and for your own 'atonement'. - God provides the grace and means of course for your salvation, and the key is activated via 'repentance', - all else are but helps towards the essential changing of the inward disposition of the mind, the rebirth of the spirit within, the inner transformation and direction of will.

FURTHERMORE...sacrifice itself, blood-letting or otherwise (pick your method or means), is symbolic of the soul surrendering, yielding all to 'God'. Your true sacrifice is the putting your own flesh, your own ego, self desires on the cross, crucifying it, for the dominance and rising(life) of your 'spirit' to ascend to its place in ruling the soul-body, so you are LED by the spirit, walking in the victory of God-consciousness. All these religious rituals and gestures are 'figurative'(symbolic) so that one can offer the kinds of sacrifices that 'God' really accepts at an inward level, actions of the soul and spirit engaging in true spiritual service.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

If we're reconciled to God by the death of his son, then we should be dying too, denying ourselves, baring our cross and following Jesus

Jesus was suffering long before he got to the cross, he was denying Satan continually, he was tried by fire, tempted every day yet he never sinned. He bore his cross daily, suffered and he was dead to his flesh and being dead to his flesh he was alive in the Spirit, he was in the fullness of God bodily, he denied himself, and he did the will of God, glorifying God and bringing life to all those who believed in him and followed him.

Christ Jesus came as a living sacrifice, and he sacrificed his whole life to God and denied himself not living by his will but living by the will of God, being the perfect example for us to follow.

Also, look in the verses you have quoted, in Romans 5:10 it says that we are saved by the life of Jesus not his death. Death doesn't save, life saves.

Mahig,

What need for a ransom?

Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

LA

 

[marhig]

Mahig,

What need for a ransom?

Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

LA

And that's right, but he gave up his whole life as a ransom, his life in exchange for ours, he laid down his whole life to save many, he denied his will and became a living sacrifice to do Gods will, he was dead to his flesh, and through that death he reconciled and saved all those who heard his word and believed, they were saved by his life, they are those who when they heard, repented had faith and followed him who deny themselves and bare their cross to do the will of God, and in truly following Jesus, they are born of God by the Spirit being saved daily by his life within helping them to overcome their flesh.

In the old testament the Jews couldn't eat meat with blood still in, the blood had to be poured out and then the meat had to be roasted over a fire.

And this is what it's like to be a living sacrifice, only spiritually Christ Jesus poured out his life and was dead to his flesh, he denied himself and never let his flesh live, he never sinned, and he lived to please God and he was tried by fire and overcame Satan on his own ground by overcoming evil with good, he overcame this world, and this world had no hold on him. And God gave him power over all flesh. And his meat is good to eat.

We must go through the same, but we sin. The more we partake in the sufferings of Christ, and deny the lusts of our flesh, the stronger we become in God. We must become a living sacrifice and lay down our lives, and by doing so we pour out our lives (shed our blood) and deny sin, strengthened by the holy spirit through Christ, and then the life of Christ (the blood of Christ,) lives in and through us, and covers us. So that our old life is gone, dead, and we are dying daily to sin, so that Christ can live.

And because we are covered in Christ, God is pleased because he can see the life of his son in and through us. We are tried with fire and and our meat is good to eat, because we are cleansed by the blood of Christ which is in and through us and by the power of the holy spirit, we should be overcoming when we are tried, and we are a living sacrifice, tried by fire, our old life dead and our new man living a life holy and acceptable to God through his holy son Jesus Christ. Without him we would be still dead in our sins.

His flesh is meat indeed and his blood is drink indeed.

Do you believe that when he said eat my flesh and drink my blood that it was his natural flesh and blood?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Do you believe that when he said eat my flesh and drink my blood that it was his natural flesh and blood?

No I don't,

but Christ suffered and died AFTER He had given all to God up to that point.

You need to consider why He suffered and died.

According to you, it was not necessary.

LA

 

[marhig]

No I don't,

but Christ suffered and died AFTER He had given all to God up to that point.

You need to consider why He suffered and died.

According to you, it was not necessary.

LA

Jesus fulfilled the scriptures, it was prophesied in the old testament what he would go through. God knew what Satan would put him through, and Jesus came willingly as a lamb to the slaughter. He bore our sins and suffered whatever Satan threw at him and overcame evil with good, leaving us a perfect example to follow.

God didn't crucify Jesus, wicked men crucified him because they were full of envy. But Jesus suffered it and overcame by never sinning, Satan tried everything to get him to sin, he was in the people even when Jesus was crucified, saying "look he saved others but he can't save himself" and save yourself and us also" but Jesus knew that he had to bare whatever was set before him, including the cross and overcome evil with good by not sinning. And even as he was crucified he prayed and said "father forgive them for they know not what they do" he was still full of forgiveness and mercy, Satan couldn't touch him.

He didn't come to be crucified to save through the death on the cross, but to bare witness to the truth and save through his life.

The crucifixion wasn't a good and holy thing, it's not something to be worshipped, it's a wicked act done at the hands of wicked men.

And those of us who know God, and live according to the lusts of our flesh, crucify Christ afresh and put him to an open shame. We put him to death, just as those wicked people did to him the first time!

What do you believe he meant by eat my flesh and drink my blood? And that his flesh and blood are meat and drink indeed?

 

[patrick jane]

Hey freelight !!!

 

[daqq]

How do you understand the following highly disputed passage LA?

Acts 20:28 KJV
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:28 YLT
28 'Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood,

Acts 20:28 ASV
28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.

Or whichever translation or rendering you prefer?

Hmmm, no response? How can you have a blood atonement thread without addressing this LA?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Hmmm, no response? How can you have a blood atonement thread without addressing this LA?

Hi Daqq...

Please explain atonement in simple term... through the Blood of the WORD that Became flesh. I'm interested... because you still push the Law, Deny that the Jesus is God... and are fully in record calling "Christian Atonement" a false Theory.

Oh...

And...

Could you please directly address the question on the Arian thread that you keep dodging because... The nature of "The Perfect Lamb" that shed that blood is pretty important...

Evil's" Prophecy... [MENTION=17195]daqq[/MENTION] is going to wait till I log off, and deploy myriads of tactics 1-6 to side step this scriptural observation.

; )

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Hmmm, no response? How can you have a blood atonement thread without addressing this LA?

The verses seem so self explanatory.

You can speak on them if you like.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Jesus fulfilled the scriptures, it was prophesied in the old testament what he would go through. God knew what Satan would put him through, and Jesus came willingly as a lamb to the slaughter. He bore our sins and suffered whatever Satan threw at him and overcame evil with good, leaving us a perfect example to follow.

God didn't crucify Jesus, wicked men crucified him because they were full of envy. But Jesus suffered it and overcame by never sinning, Satan tried everything to get him to sin, he was in the people even when Jesus was crucified, saying "look he saved others but he can't save himself" and save yourself and us also" but Jesus knew that he had to bare whatever was set before him, including the cross and overcome evil with good by not sinning. And even as he was crucified he prayed and said "father forgive them for they know not what they do" he was still full of forgiveness and mercy, Satan couldn't touch him.

He didn't come to be crucified to save through the death on the cross, but to bare witness to the truth and save through his life.

The crucifixion wasn't a good and holy thing, it's not something to be worshipped, it's a wicked act done at the hands of wicked men.

And those of us who know God, and live according to the lusts of our flesh, crucify Christ afresh and put him to an open shame. We put him to death, just as those wicked people did to him the first time!

What do you believe he meant by eat my flesh and drink my blood? And that his flesh and blood are meat and drink indeed?

Last point first--

We live by every Word which proceeds out of the mouth of God. That Word became flesh as Jesus first, before we are transformed by the same Word, only completed at our resurrection.

One must drink of His Spirit which only became available/legal through the shedding of Christ's blood.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


This shows that believers pre-cross were never both again, were never temples of the Holy spirit.

and that those who claim otherwise are most likely the same as old testament pre-law, were, and they all club together with reasons why they do not want to become temples of the Holy Spirit, and thus remain much like Saul before he became Paul, and like OT King Saul, which so many churches today become like because they commit the same errors they did.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Jesus fulfilled the scriptures, it was prophesied in the old testament what he would go through. God knew what Satan would put him through, and Jesus came willingly as a lamb to the slaughter. He bore our sins and suffered whatever Satan threw at him and overcame evil with good, leaving us a perfect example to follow.

God didn't crucify Jesus, wicked men crucified him because they were full of envy. But Jesus suffered it and overcame by never sinning, Satan tried everything to get him to sin, he was in the people even when Jesus was crucified, saying "look he saved others but he can't save himself" and save yourself and us also" but Jesus knew that he had to bare whatever was set before him, including the cross and overcome evil with good by not sinning. And even as he was crucified he prayed and said "father forgive them for they know not what they do" he was still full of forgiveness and mercy, Satan couldn't touch him.

He didn't come to be crucified to save through the death on the cross, but to bare witness to the truth and save through his life.

The crucifixion wasn't a good and holy thing, it's not something to be worshipped, it's a wicked act done at the hands of wicked men.

And those of us who know God, and live according to the lusts of our flesh, crucify Christ afresh and put him to an open shame. We put him to death, just as those wicked people did to him the first time!

What do you believe he meant by eat my flesh and drink my blood? And that his flesh and blood are meat and drink indeed?

I realize that people idolize the cross and He who hung on it, but that has nothing to do with seeing the truth of it and Him.

First off, Christ suffered the blows and stripes which we AS CHRISTIANS deserve sometimes.

Christ did not suffer for the sins of the wicked.

Can we not discern that so many things said and done by believers to other believers are the same as done by wicked men to Christ Himself. (Acts 9:4)

These bad things by believers can not be forgiven without the sufferings of Christ for them.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Gradually it sinks in that the Bible is written to, and mainly describes corrections for, believers.

Unbeliever take no notice of it, and God knew that when He had it written, though it is up to believers to correct their children and others under their charge, where and when possible, and devise wise means of projecting its warnings and hopes into the general populace.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


LA

 

[daqq]

Originally Posted by daqq
How do you understand the following highly disputed passage LA?

Acts 20:28 KJV
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 20:28 YLT
28 'Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit made you overseers, to feed the assembly of God that He acquired through His own blood,

Acts 20:28 ASV
28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.

Or whichever translation or rendering you prefer?

The verses seem so self explanatory.

You can speak on them if you like.

LA

Simple enough . . .
Here is my commentary:

Romans 8:11 W/H
11 εἰ δὲ τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ ἐγείραντος τὸν Ἰησοῦν ἐκ νεκρῶν οἰκεῖ ἐν ὑμῖν, ὁ ἐγείρας ἐκ νεκρῶν Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν ζῳοποιήσει [καὶ] τὰ θνητὰ σώματα ὑμῶν διὰ τοῦ ἐνοικοῦντος αὐτοῦ πνεύματος ἐν ὑμῖν.

Romans 8:4-15
4 That the righteousness of the Torah should be completed in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the matters of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the matters of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace.
7 Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards Elohim, for it does not subject itself to the Torah of Elohim, neither indeed is it capable:
8 And those who are in the flesh are unable to please Elohim.
9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed Ruach Elohim dwells in you: but if anyone does not have Ruach Meshiah, that one is not his.
10 And if Meshiah be in you, the body is truly dead on account of sin, but the Spirit is life on account of righteousness.
11 Moreover if the Spirit of he who raised Yeshua from the dead dwells in you, Meshiah who raised Yeshua from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit dwelling in you.
12 So then, brethren, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh:
13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you do put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live.
14 For as many as are led of Ruach Elohim, these are sons of Elohim.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, in whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." [Mrk 14:36, Gal 4:6]

So one must walk according to the Spirit because the scripture also says:

John 1:18a
18 No one has seen Elohim at any time:

1 John 4:12a
12 No one has beheld Elohim at any time:

1 John 4:20
20 If anyone says, "I love Elohim", and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, cannot love Elohim whom he has not seen.

And if no one has ever seen or beheld Elohim at any time then neither has anyone ever seen or beheld the blood of Elohim at any time, no matter how one decides to understand Acts 20:28, for the blood of our covenant is Spirit.

 

[daqq]

Also Romans 8:11 is another highly suspect statement because of the variant readings in the various manuscripts. The overall passage plainly speaks of Adoptionism as quoted previously above, (the position to which I hold), which position was indeed the position of the apostles including Paul, and which position has long been known to have been scrubbed by the early Roman Church after Constantine married church and state together as one:

Romans 8:11 W/H / [Variants]
11 ει δε το πνευμα του εγειραντος τον ιησουν εκ νεκρων οικει εν υμιν ο εγειρας | εκ νεκρων χριστον ιησουν ζωοποιησει [και] | χριστον εκ νεκρων ζωοποιησει και | τα θνητα σωματα υμων δια του ενοικουντος αυτου πνευματος εν υμιν

Romans 8:11 W/H / [NA27 Variants]
εἰ δὲ τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ ἐγείραντος τὸν Ἰησοῦν ἐκ νεκρῶν οἰκεῖ ἐν ὑμῖν, ὁ ἐγείρας «ἐκ νεκρῶν» ⇔ Χριστὸν (Ἰησοῦν) ζωοποιήσει καὶ τὰ θνητὰ σώματα ὑμῶν διὰ τοῦ ἐνοικοῦντος αὐτοῦ πνεύματος ἐν ὑμῖν.
http://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-11.htm

Romans 8:11 T/R (Textus Receptus)
11 ει δε το πνευμα του εγειραντος ιησουν εκ νεκρων οικει εν υμιν ο εγειρας τον χριστον εκ νεκρων ζωοποιησει και τα θνητα σωματα υμων δια {το ενοικουν αυτου πνευμα}{ του ενοικουντος αυτου πνευματος} εν υμιν

Romans 8:11 BYZ (Byzantine Text)
11 ει δε το πνευμα του εγειραντος ιησουν εκ νεκρων οικει εν υμιν ο εγειρας τον χριστον εκ νεκρων ζωοποιησει και τα θνητα σωματα υμων δια το ενοικουν αυτου πνευμα εν υμιν

The reason this passage has become so mangled is because carnal man does not distinguish between Meshiah the Son of Elohim, (who is Ruach Elohim and Ruach Meshiah), and the man Yeshua whom Ruach Meshiah raised from the dead, (just as Yeshua testifies in the Gospel of John, and as has been expounded many times over around here; even in plainly a worded thread which has been shut down by the haters of Ruach Elohim). So likewise the charge from the bastard sons that I am manipulating the scripture holds no water: their mother and fathers are the ones who manipulated and hacked up the writings to suit their own agenda and dogma. But the truth remains by way of understanding the overall doctrine from many other passages which remain intact, (because the blind did not even understand what they were reading so as to defile that too).

The blood of Meshiah is the pure blood of the grape; the covenant wine, the Testimony.

 

[marhig]

Last point first--

We live by every Word which proceeds out of the mouth of God. That Word became flesh as Jesus first, before we are transformed by the same Word, only completed at our resurrection.

One must drink of His Spirit which only became available/legal through the shedding of Christ's blood.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


This shows that believers pre-cross were never both again, were never temples of the Holy spirit.

and that those who claim otherwise are most likely the same as old testament pre-law, were, and they all club together with reasons why they do not want to become temples of the Holy Spirit, and thus remain much like Saul before he became Paul, and like OT King Saul, which so many churches today become like because they commit the same errors they did.

LA

Ummmm what about Moses? What about the prophets? Didn't they have the holy spirit? Why do you think that people in the old testament didn't have the holy spirit? Jesus said to the rich young ruler, obey the commandments and live! The trouble is they many weren't obeying the commandments and living right before God, Jesus came as an example so that we have no excuse. He came and showed us the way.

LA the blood is spiritual just like Jesus and his apostles speak about the seed, and water, trees, clouds, all in the spirit. As you see we can't drink the natural blood of Jesus so Jesus is speaking in the spirit! How can natural blood save LA? The blood that saves is the life of Christ in me and you! Why would God need a human sacrifice to atone for our sins? He's not a Mayan God, he's the God of love. Jesus Christ sacrificed his whole life to bring us a new and living way. And if your think he didn't suffer you'd be very wrong he suffered in all ways to bare witness to the truth, why do you think Paul says that we are to partake in the sufferings of Christ if Christ didn't suffer only when he was crucified?

And why can't people see that wicked men killed Jesus, why on earth would God be a part of that? The cruel merciless killing of his innocent son. People are blinded by flesh and can't see the spiritual and won't see it until God opens their eyes. I've even heard people say that God was in the pharasees who murdered Jesus, that's how warped our flesh is, when we make things up like this to suit doctrines. Jesus even said that they were doing the works of their father the devil by trying to kill him!

Jesus said in John 7 and 8 that it was wrong to kill him, even saying that they are going against the laws of Moses. So it was wrong before God to kill Jesus. It wasn't a good and holy thing in any way whatsoever!

And Paul said this

1 Corinthians 2

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Peter in acts 2

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

And Peter again in acts 3

But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Again he says in acts 5

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree

They don't glorify the cross, they treat it as a murder weapon to kill the holy son of the living God, and they say that what they did to Jesus was wrong!

I know that Jesus had to go through whatever was set before him, and I know that he had to fulfill the prophesies, and he did this, he did what Adam couldn't do, he resisted Satan and he overcame him and never sinned, leaving us a perfect example, he showed us a new and living way, he is the way, the truth and the life, he is the only way back to God.

The death on the cross didn't save us, his life does and we are to follow him and his teachings.

Why would they speak like that if Jesus' death was to save us?

And how can we be saved by the grace of God through faith and the death on the cross? That doesn't make sense. And Jesus was saving before he was crucified, he didn't need to be crucified to save anyone!

And to show you that the blood isn't his natural blood, I have a verse for you. Can you tell me what you believe this means?

Hebrews 12

KJV

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

NIV

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.

Do you believe that Paul is talking about natural blood? Thanks

I'll be out all day today, so I'll answer any more when I can

 

[marhig]

I realize that people idolize the cross and He who hung on it, but that has nothing to do with seeing the truth of it and Him.

First off, Christ suffered the blows and stripes which we AS CHRISTIANS deserve sometimes.

Christ did not suffer for the sins of the wicked.

Can we not discern that so many things said and done by believers to other believers are the same as done by wicked men to Christ Himself. (Acts 9:4)

These bad things by believers can not be forgiven without the sufferings of Christ for them.

Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Gradually it sinks in that the Bible is written to, and mainly describes corrections for, believers.

Unbeliever take no notice of it, and God knew that when He had it written, though it is up to believers to correct their children and others under their charge, where and when possible, and devise wise means of projecting its warnings and hopes into the general populace.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


LA

We are to suffer too LA! Why do you think that we aren't to suffer? We are to lose our lives if it comes to it, like Stephen and the apostles. God comes first before our lives!

1 Peter 4

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God

And further down the same chapter

Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified

By the way, Christ suffered for everyone, to bring the truth and preach the gospel for everyone, it's up to us whether we believe and follow him, or not.

Ok I'm off out.