Atheists, power/energy??

[Jamie Gigliotti]

So my question for atheists is: Either all the power and energy in existence in this universe/dimension or any other universe/dimension, and any other existence or realm has either always existed eternally or it came into existence with no cause?

Both possibilities I admit are mind boggling. But power and energy always existing is the only answer that can begin to make any sense. In our universe we see this play out as energy exists and it neither can be destroyed or created just transferred.

How could you even begin to deny there has to be one uncaused Power/Energy source? One uncaused phenomena.

 

[Jose Fly]

"Always existed" requires time. Time did not come into existence until the moment of the big bang, which means there is no "before the big bang". So basically, the universe and its energy are "eternal" (since there is no time in which they did not exist).

It's difficult to wrap one's head around.

 

[PureX]

We do not know the source of the energy of existence. Nor do we know the source of it's limitations, which ultimately determines the nature of existence as we know it. So I see no value in arguing over speculations that we can propose but do not comprehend.

It is a mystery. I think we just have to accept it as such; theist, atheist, or otherwise.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

"Always existed" requires time. Time did not come into existence until the moment of the big bang, which means there is no "before the big bang". So basically, the universe and its energy are "eternal" (since there is no time in which they did not exist).

It's difficult to wrap one's head around.

Time being relative to our existence does not negate that there was nothing before our existence.

The main idea of the op/thread is that with the law of cause and effect being applied to energy/power; There was either a beginning spotaneously with no cause, or there is cause with no beginning or end an uncaused eternal phenomena/power/energy.

 

[PureX]

Time being relative to our existence does not negate that there was nothing before our existence.

The main idea of the op/thread is that with the law of cause and effect being applied to energy/power; There was either a beginning spotaneously with no cause, or there is cause with no beginning or end an uncaused eternal phenomena/power/energy.

The "law of cause and effect" is only observable WITHIN the universe, as an expression go it's nature. There is no logical reason that we must assume it applies in any way to existence previous, outside, or beyond the universe, if such states exist.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

We do not know the source of the energy of existence. Nor do we know the source of it's limitations, which ultimately determines the nature of existence as we know it. So I see no value in arguing over speculations that we can propose but do not comprehend.

It is a mystery. I think we just have to accept it as such; theist, atheist, or otherwise.

This thread is obviously attempt to persuade those who mind numbingly dwell on the possibility that everything coming from nothing, or those who ride the equally mind numbing path of those not concerning themselves with anything.

Could we ever know here how everything, all power and energy has always existed? Of course not, but accepting it is the only way to freedom...

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

The "law of cause and effect" is only observable WITHIN the universe, as an expression go it's nature. There is no logical reason that we must assume it applies in any way to existence previous, outside, or beyond the universe, if such states exist.

The law of cause and effect is scientific, but also philosophical and logical...

 

[PureX]

This thread is obviously attempt to persuade those who mind numbingly dwell on the possibility that everything coming from nothing, or those who ride the equally mind numbing path of those not concerning themselves with anything.

Could we ever know here how everything, all power and energy has always existed? Of course not, but accepting it is the only way to freedom...

The way to 'freedom' is through honesty, and humility. And both of these dictate that we simply admit that we do not know and probably will never know the source of the energy of existence. Or the source of it's limitations, which determines the nature of existence as we experience it.

To acquire such knowledge would require us to somehow transcend beyond the current bounds of existence as we experience it. And I don't see how that could ever be possible. We would be transcending ourselves, beyond our own existence. And that's logically impossible.

 

[PureX]

The law of cause and effect is scientific, but also philosophical and logical...

Yes, I know. And as such, in either case, it remains under the rule of logical reasoning.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

The way to 'freedom' is through honesty, and humility. And both of these dictate that we simply admit that we do not know and probably will never know the source of the energy of existence. Or the source of it's limitations, which determines the nature of existence as we experience it.

To acquire such knowledge would require us to somehow transcend beyond the current bounds of existence as we experience it. And I don't see how that could ever be possible. We would be transcending ourselves, beyond our own existence. And that's logically impossible.

What you are describing is the transcendental Spiritual way God confims His reality, His power through His Holy Spirit. So that we can know Him, which is love.

 

[PureX]

What you are describing is the transcendental Spiritual way God confims His reality, His power through His Holy Spirit. So that we can know Him, which is love.

Yes. That's how I choose to perceive the existential mystery. But at the same time, I also have to concede that I do so based mostly on my own desire, not on anything I can 'know'. And so when others choose to perceive the mystery differently, I have little basis upon which to argue with them.

I guess that was probably more the point I was trying to make in focussing on our profound ignorance regarding this existential mystery.

 

[Jose Fly]

Time being relative to our existence does not negate that there was nothing before our existence.

There was no "before our existence", since time itself didn't exist until the moment of the BB.

Take some time and read up on it.

 

[jgarden]

Atheists, power/energy??

Archaeologists and anthropologists have yet to discover an early society whose belief system was based on atheism.

We can argue that these beliefs were designed to explain things that we now understand through science or that they were perverted by the elites to produce a more compliant populace, but the fact remains that the desire to believe in a high power appears to be an inherent trait in humanity.

 

[Hedshaker]

There was no "before our existence", since time itself didn't exist until the moment of the BB.

Take some time and read up on it.

Not all of science and leading cosmologists agree that all of existence began with the Big Bang, including Roger Penrose now.

Of course, science tells us not to look to intuition for answers to deep question, but neither should we make assumptions about what is not known.