ECT At the cross...

[nikolai_42]

Deut 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

How does that address them accepting the sacrifice (for it to be made efficacious for them)?

 

[Nick M]

Then what was the purpose of the Old Covenant?

Which one?

 

[Truster]

PS as was Daniel 9:27 fulfilled, because the debt was repaid.

''....and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,''.

This is why we know Messiah died on the Wednesday which is the midst of the week.

 

[Cross Reference]

Just probing Nick for more detail...finding out more detail of where his statement leads.

Good. I will not reply to your #12 post.

 

[nikolai_42]

Which one?

Inasmuch as this covers broad territory, I will continue down this line with you. I had hoped you would answer the followup I had to your initial response. This was directed at CR specifically because he responded in a way that (to my reading and understanding) begged the question.

Having said that, my thought was the whole Adam-Christ timeframe, but since it can be largely characterized by the covenant from Sinai, I will use that one (if it makes a real difference).

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Galatians 4:21-26

Paul didn't have to start out with the Galatians clarifying which covenant he meant...so I take it that this is the one in view to characterize the Old Testament.

 

[nikolai_42]

Good. I will not reply to your #12 post.

Oh. Okay...

 

[fzappa13]

How does that address them accepting the sacrifice (for it to be made efficacious for them)?

Obviously, those that obeyed chose to (that would include accepting the sacrifice) and gained the benefit offered. Those that did not suffered the consequences warned of.

Very simple ... that is, unless one has adopted a doctrine that precludes the obvious.

 

[nikolai_42]

Obviously, those that obeyed chose to (that would include accepting the sacrifice) and gained the benefit offered. Those that did not suffered the consequences warned of.

Very simple ... that is, unless one has adopted a doctrine that precludes the obvious.

I think that's assuming what is to be proven...but even if one accepts that explanation, what was different with Christ's sacrifice?

 

[fzappa13]

I think that's assuming what is to be proven...but even if one accepts that explanation, what was different with Christ's sacrifice?

I have to read you the Bible? Really? Okay:

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 And having an high priest over the house of God;

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

 

[Cross Reference]

There is only one reality, redemption. The rest is of faith.

 

[Nick M]

So practically speaking, what does that mean for the individual who has sin

Just what it says in Romans 5

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Only most reject the gift. They want to do it themselves.

So if no one was saved, no one would understand it?

What?

 

[Nick M]

Redemption is not salvation!

No it isn't. One still has to say yes to the gift. When you accept the gift, you move from death to life, which is what salvation is.

 

[nikolai_42]

I have to read you the Bible? Really? Okay:

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
...

We are still back to your original assertion, then. If something was offered to the people under the Old Covenant, what was offered? All that you've said so far is that the cross was a sacrifice "for those that would avail themselves of it." You've said that the sacrifice had to be accepted (both in the Old and the New). You've said that accepting the sacrifice made it efficacious (also both in the Old and the New). Is the only difference now that it doesn't have to be repeated every year? If you then go with what is plainly written (verse 4 in the snipped quote) then what was being accepted under the Old Covenant? If it couldn't do anything, then that's the difference. But if it couldn't do anything, what were the OT Israelites "availing themselves" of?

 

[Nick M]

Having said that, my thought was the whole Adam-Christ timeframe, but since it can be largely characterized by the covenant from Sinai, I will use that one (if it makes a real difference).

He tells them the purpose of the covenant. Israel is to be set apart. The short version is they are to be set as a light to the people. They are to inherit land. They are to serve as a nation of priests.

 

[nikolai_42]

Just what it says in Romans 5

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Only most reject the gift. They want to do it themselves.


What?

Again, if no one would ever be saved, what was actually accomplished at the cross? What changed?

My comment about no one understanding it was in response to your quote of the cross being foolishness to them that perish (which was in response to what I am asking again - what if no one were ever saved?).

 

[Cross Reference]

We are still back to your original assertion, then. If something was offered to the people under the Old Covenant, what was offered? All that you've said so far is that the cross was a sacrifice "for those that would avail themselves of it." You've said that the sacrifice had to be accepted (both in the Old and the New). You've said that accepting the sacrifice made it efficacious (also both in the Old and the New). Is the only difference now that it doesn't have to be repeated every year? If you then go with what is plainly written (verse 4 in the snipped quote) then what was being accepted under the Old Covenant? If it couldn't do anything, then that's the difference. But if it couldn't do anything, what were the OT Israelites "availing themselves" of?

What offered was nothing. Now, why not contrast that to what was promised.

 

[fzappa13]

We are still back to your original assertion, then. If something was offered to the people under the Old Covenant, what was offered? All that you've said so far is that the cross was a sacrifice "for those that would avail themselves of it." You've said that the sacrifice had to be accepted (both in the Old and the New). You've said that accepting the sacrifice made it efficacious (also both in the Old and the New). Is the only difference now that it doesn't have to be repeated every year? If you then go with what is plainly written (verse 4 in the snipped quote) then what was being accepted under the Old Covenant? If it couldn't do anything, then that's the difference. But if it couldn't do anything, what were the OT Israelites "availing themselves" of?

The benefits of obedience ... and the possibility of learning the prophetic significance of God's ordinances. Remember Hebrews 10:1?

 

[Nick M]

Again, if no one would ever be saved, what was actually accomplished at the cross?

Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it? Your question has no purpose.

My comment about no one understanding it was in response to your quote of the cross being foolishness to them that perish

Maybe you don't understand what Paul is saying. He is saying those that reject 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (by my count that is more than 90% of Christians), they will go to hell. They are perishing.

 

[nikolai_42]

The benefits of obedience ... and the possibility of learning the prophetic significance of God's ordinances. Remember Hebrews 10:1?

So if the Israelites obeyed the law in the OT, great things were promised them here on earth...and if we obey God after Calvary, great things are promised in heaven? The passage in Hebrews speaks of making those who approach, perfect. Not those who approach obeying for reward. I still don't see how you've addressed what the sacrifice itself actually did.

 

[nikolai_42]

Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it? Your question has no purpose.

It has a very specific purpose. Assume no one chooses Christ. What did Calvary accomplish? It isolates the choice of men from the sacrifice itself. If the sacrifice accomplishes (and accomplished) nothing on its own (independent of anyone choosing to accept the sacrifice), then it is dependent on man for its activation. If not, what is it that the sacrifice accomplished - independent of man's reception of it (or lack thereof).

Maybe you don't understand what Paul is saying. He is saying those that reject 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (by my count that is more than 90% of Christians), they will go to hell. They are perishing.

I'm not sure what definition of "Christian" includes those who reject the death, burial and resurrection (much less one in which 9/10ths reject its central tenet!).