ARCHIVE - You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

Projill

New member
Knight said:
Simple, you just stop coming to the site!

I'm sure you probably heard this from kids when you shoved their heads in the boys toilet in high school but, I'll say it anyway: You're just a big ole mean bully. I love how you're taking pot shots at a diabetic who gets sick a lot. Do you knock over old people at the mall too?
 

Nathon Detroit

New member
Kiwi says...
Jesus time and again tells us not to judge, Matthew 7, Luke 6
Uh... sorry but your wrong. Jesus said in Matthew chapter 7 that we shouldn't judge like "HYPOCRYTES" which is entirely different from not judging at all wouldn't you think?
 

Nathon Detroit

New member
Projill writes...
You're just a big ole mean bully. I love how you're taking pot shots at a diabetic who gets sick a lot. Do you knock over old people at the mall too?
Are you thinking when your typing??? I don't want HSG to leave!!! He provides valuable entertainment to our forum! But he asked me how to unsubscribe to TheologyOnLine so I felt obligated to tell him, what is wrong with that?
 

beanieboy

New member
Knight - I would appreciate it if you would actually read my posts.

I said that my brother, the former pastor, was the open minded one (sun) and my brother-in-law was the one using harsh tones (wind) in my example.

I do not claim to be a Christian. I am agnostic. I believe in God, but I do not believe Christians have a monopoly on God.

And did my brother-in-laws words pay off? Well, I'm Agnostic. I believe that God is in all of us and a part of us. I believe Christianity does not have a monopoly on God. I think that many fundies are so caught up in law that they have no time for love and wouldn't know Christ if he sat next to them on the subway. So, maybe. I guess I should thank him for arriving at this agnostic state, and having a better understanding of God.
 

beanieboy

New member
Knight - yes, naturally you want an example of Jesus approving of sin. As I pointed out, a conservative will say, "liberal honey is condoning sin for fear of offending." And the liberal says, "Vinegar is the "You're going to hell! Have a nice life" nose in the air overreaction. Both are untrue. So I ask for an example. I give examples. But you dodge. I ask how you are going to drag a Muslim out of a metophorical burning building (mosque - where they will suffer hell). No response. I think the reason that people like Projill are misunderstanding your HSG comment is because it doesn't seem like you are struggling or debating an answer, but dodging the dialogue to push people's buttons.

So, I will define it clearly.
In the sentence "You attract more flies with honey than vinegar,"
Honey: is using a gentle approach, and being humble, and kind, and understanding to the person's situation, and listening to them.
Vinegar to me, means Fingerpointing, being unmerciful, haughty, exalting the self, name calling, and the like.

Where do I draw the line? I ask "whom does it hurt?" If you are oppressing a group of people, I will speak out against you with harsh words. If you are mostly hurting yourself, I will speak kinder words, because it is ultimately your decision to make.

What my sense is that you came down harsh on your relative, and things got tense, and you feel bad about it. You won't give the details. You dodge defining "vinegar." You dodge offering up a real life example, like having a homosexual neighbor, and disapproving of homosexuality. So, my speculation? That you made a mistake, and feel bad about it. And if that's true, it's ok. You're human, and you probably meant well. But you are also acting cowardly.
 
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Projill

New member
Knight said:
Are you thinking when your typing???

I was just wondering that about you.

I don't want HSG to leave!!!

That's a relief since you're a mod.

He provides valuable entertainment to our forum!

Don't belittle him when you respond to me.

But he asked me how to unsubscribe to TheologyOnLine so I felt obligated to tell him, what is wrong with that? [/B]

Do you actually believe that, even for a split second?
 

Goose

New member
beanieboy said:
...I think that many fundies are so caught up in law that they have no time for love and wouldn't know Christ if he sat next to them on the subway....

The law shows the love. And if Jesus preached on this subway bus, "Repent. For the kingdom of heaven is at hand", would you?

Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
 

Goose

New member
kiwimac said:

Jesus time and again tells us not to judge, Matthew 7, Luke 6, then goes further and tells us that its the very standards that we use to judge that we ourselves will be judged by

.....

Kiwimac

Everyone will be judged. I pray that I will be judged in this type of righteous judgement instead of the other previous verses/descriptions of judgement.
 
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Projill

New member
goose said:
The law shows the love. And if Jesus preached on this subway bus, "Repent. For the kingdom of heaven is at hand", would you?

I knew this was gonna happen.

Stand back, people. This was the first movie I ever bought, I have to finish the scene now:

[Clue]BT&FBID: "Repent. The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

Miss Scarlett: "You ain't just whilstlin' dixie."

BT&FBID: "Armageddon is almost upon us."

Prof. Plumb: "I got news for you, it's already here."

Mrs. Peacock: "Go away!"

BT&FBID: "But your souls are in danger!"

Mrs. Peacock: "Our lives are in danger, ya beatnik!"[/Clue]


*coughs* Sorry, had to do that or my head would explode. Go back to your regularly scheduled debating.
 

Projill

New member
Yeah, I do apologize, goose. It's one of my eccentricities. When I see people quoting scripture that's been quoted in movies that I know well, I have to do the entire scene or it gets caught in my head until I do.

Considering the kind of movies I tend to watch, I'm lucky I haven't been banned for language already. ;)
 

Goose

New member
Projill said:
Yeah, I do apologize, goose. It's one of my eccentricities. When I see people quoting scripture that's been quoted in movies that I know well, I have to do the entire scene or it gets caught in my head until I do.

Considering the kind of movies I tend to watch, I'm lucky I haven't been banned for language already. ;)

I liked the Clue tags. Nice touch. What's the big deal about you Projill? I saw a thread with your name on it?
 

godspell

New member
Knight, excellent post, and well done for addressing the issue in the manner you have.

I understand your analogy, but I'm not entirely sure if it's the analogy which is really to be questioned. I notice an awful number of red herrings in people's otherwise logical arguments on this forum, and I'm afraid to say that this may well be one. That is; the wrong issue is being looked at. People aren't saying to you "kill (use honey) instead of harm (use vinegar)" as you state when speaking of killing flies and make the (il)logical jump to killing family members. Rather, they're saying that a more gentle approach may well be more in keeping with the teachings of Jesus, and therefore quite logically a more Christian mode of behaviour.

If you read my .sig, I have a quote which is taken from two gospels. Those of Luke and Matthew. Jesus often preached of love and tolerance. Jesus was the one to be seen with lepers, he would heal the weak, and would freely spend his time with social outcasts, even sinners! He was ridiculed and mistreated for this, yet did it anyway. Leading by example, was his primary method of teaching. Jesus made it clear that it was God who would sort out; who would label and condemn. For us, he left the task of loving one another.

Jesus, however, was also a human. Being 'Son of Man' as he so often referred to himself, he was subject to many of the weaknesses we are, also. That is - while he attempted to lead by example, by loving all his brothers, he also managed to contradict himself, both in words, and action. Who could forget his outburst against the sinners in the temple? However, the frequency of his form of 'vinegar' is much less than that of his 'honey'; his love for fellow people.

As God gave us the gift of our mind, and as the parable of the men and their talents suggests, we as humans, and Christians alike, should attempt to understand that there is a very simple theme in Jesus' teachings: Love. With this comes understanding, patience, tolerance, and other simple virtues.
This, at the time, was in stark contrast to the Old Testament teachings of a vengeful God, full of fury and wrath.

I understand that it may be easy to get carried away, and attempt to scare people into submission with stories of punishment, and harsh words. (I'm appalled at the number of people who call others names in this forum - it's shocking!) The same logic is used for Capital punishment - scare people enough, and they won't be likely to do the bad thing.

However, Jesus' overall message was clear, both in word and action - love your fellow man. To me, there is no better way to spread the word. Tell me who does not crave love, acceptance, and harmony with their fellow man? If they are offered this in a consistent and continual fashion, then they will see what a true Christian you are.
 
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Nathon Detroit

New member
godspell, thanks for the kinds words... but might I suggest you are misusing the words of Jesus?

In both Luke 6 and Matthew 7 Jesus isn't telling people not to judge He is telling people HOW to judge. He explains to them that they shouldn't judge like "hypocrites".

And although Jesus may have dealt with sinner's He was never accepting of their behaviors or indicated in ANY way that it would be OK for them to go unrepentant.

You claim...
he also managed to contradict himself, both in words, and action. Who could forget his outburst against the sinners in the temple?
That isn't a contradiction in action for Jesus as He was often harsh with the wicked.

You continue...
very simple theme in Jesus' teachings: Love. With this comes understanding, patience, tolerance, and other simple virtues.
Jesus NEVER taught tolerance for wicked people. The only time Jesus referred to tolerance of any type is when He said certain wicked people would be able to "tolerate" their judgement more than other wicked people would be able to...
Matthew 11:20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. :22 “But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 “And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 “But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.” 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 “Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
You continue...
This, at the time, was in stark contrast to the Old Testament teachings of a vengeful God, full of fury and wrath.
Two points....

1. The God of the Old Testament is the same God in the New Testament
2. There are more discussions regarding eternal judgement in the New Testament than in the Old.
 

Projill

New member
goose said:


I liked the Clue tags. Nice touch. What's the big deal about you Projill? I saw a thread with your name on it?

First off, I'm glad you liked the Clue tags. I'm a hopeless UBB addict and I tend to abuse it. :D

Oh, that thread was started by one of my many admirers. I have several. The fact that I've managed to last quite a while on this forum and not get kicked off and even tend to get a minute amount of respect by even the more conservative elements on this board probably annoyed NoLies. His very name was a response to my signature of the moment...which I change every month or so.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
Knight said:
godspell, thanks for the kinds words... but might I suggest you are misusing the words of Jesus?

In both Luke 6 and Matthew 7 Jesus isn't telling people not to judge He is telling people HOW to judge. He explains to them that they shouldn't judge like "hypocrites".

And although Jesus may have dealt with sinner's He was never accepting of their behaviors or indicated in ANY way that it would be OK for them to go unrepentant.

You claim...Two points....

1. The God of the Old Testament is the same God in the New Testament
2. There are more discussions regarding eternal judgement in the New Testament than in the Old.
I am still very curious how you seem to be able to interpret a book you have never really read? Don't you think for ANYONE to give their synopsis of any book, the book has to be read in it's entirety? I know for a fact there are no "Cliff Notes" on the bible, yet there does exist a form of them. I term them "Enyartian notes".

You (by your own admission) have never read the entire bible, yet you feel you are one of the few to have the true interpretation of the book that is actually foriegn to you. I came across this in 1WAY, Rapt, and jefferson also. It seems the most volatile members of this forum are actually quoting the words of someone else without actually reading the bible themselves. Don't you find yourself embarassed by this? Doesn't it bother you that many pagans and atheists actually have read MORE of the sacred texts than you have?

Yet you continue to call people "stupid", "ignorant", or ask them "do you ever think before posting?" when the bible, that YOU QUOTE FROM, is actually something you are basically unfamiliar with other than the verses that support your points? That context is something you have no understanding of, and that you feel that you can interpret all of God by the few verses you choose to read?

I would be ashamed, but then again, you call people liars, while lying about them, so shame may not really be something you are familiar with, anymore than the bible. You tell me I am pro-abortion, while I have repeatedly told you I am not for or against it because there are always extenuating circumstances for EVERY situation. Because I see the gray areas in life, you insult me and demand I either am for it or against it. And it is funny that anyone NOT of your faction can see, and understand, that I am NOT pro-abortion, yet you blind yourself to it (as you blind yourself to the entire bible. If it isn't in your concordance, then it is not worth knowing to you, apparently.) and call me names.

I still pray for you that one day you will feel the light that is God in you. As seen from your answer to jefferson about whether God speaks audibly to one or not, you have shown that it has never happened to you. Since it hasn't happened to you, then it can't possibly be true. And I am here to tell you different. Where exactly IS your faith? Why do you claim a powerless god who has nothing to do with us individually?

God bless you and all those you love ND. May God's voice be heard by you soon. May you choose to listen to God when He does speak to you. That is the worlds biggest sin right now. Refusing to listen when He speaks.
 
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godspell

New member
Well Knight, you may suggest whatever you like on this forum, so long as I'm afforded a similar freedom. I believe that's fair.

You say:

In both Luke 6 and Matthew 7 Jesus isn't telling people not to judge He is telling people HOW to judge. He explains to them that they shouldn't judge like "hypocrites".

Well, I might say that the passage preceeding the one I quoted begs to differ:

Luke 6.27-31

"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who mistreat you. If anyone hits you on one cheek, let him hit the other one, too; if someone takes your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to everyone who asks you for somet hing, and when someone takes what is yours, do not ask for it back. Do for others just what you want them to do for you."

Luke 6.35-36

"No! Love your enemies and do good to them; lend and expect nothing back. You will then have a great reward, and you will be sons of the Most High God. For he is good to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful just as your father is merciful."

To me, it would appear that Jesus is making a very straightforward statement. Given that my .sig quote about judging is from the verses immediately after the ones above, I think it's fair to say that Jesus was preaching a practise of not judging at all. A practise of love.

The message that we are continually given throughout the New Testament, (Is it true what HsG states - you've not read the bible? How about just the NT? That's most relevant in this case.) is that God will judge, GOD will decide. Man is left with some very specific instructions on what do do: Love your fellow man.

You continue:

That isn't a contradiction in action for Jesus as He was often harsh with the wicked.

followed by:

Jesus NEVER taught tolerance for wicked people. The only time Jesus referred to tolerance of any type is when He said certain wicked people would be able to "tolerate" their judgement more than other wicked people would be able to...

Jesus, as well as Son of Man is also seen by Christians as the son of God. So, would you say that he had the ability to pass God's judgement on people? Something we are advised not to do, as we are not God. That said; he did not do this nearly as often as he showed his love for man.

In addition, Jesus taught in many cases, through action. Curing social outcasts of diseases, banishing demons, and even talking with criminals. While he made it clear that those who had sins were indeed sinners, he did not make it his duty to punish them while they are on this earth. Even when it came time for his death, he preached love and salvation, not condemnation for those who had sinned against him. Do you feel it is your place to act in a manner contrary to that of your saviour, Jesus Christ? Do not forget - he died for our sins, he did not die simply to condemn us, or have us condemn one another.

The point I made was that Jesus' teachings and actions of love by far outweighed those to the contrary. Do you disagree with this point? It might take a while, but we could probably quote at each other until one of us is out of supporting evidence. I know which one of us I'd put money on. ;)

Two points....
1. The God of the Old Testament is the same God in the New Testament
2. There are more discussions regarding eternal judgement in the New Testament than in the Old.

Well, Knight, I don't believe I said anything to the contrary. I stated that Jesus' teachings were in contrast to those of the prophets who came before him.

Since you brought it up, however - how about the New Covenant? While God remains the same, it would appear that Jesus laid down a new set of rules. There was but one:

John 13.34-35

"And now I give you a new commandment: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. If you have love for one another, then everyone will know that you are my disciples."

This was said by Jesus at the Last Supper, the time at which he laid out the New Covenant for man. A covenant, being God's promise to the human race, and also a sealed agreement, would suggest to me that God was speaking through Jesus to make his message both clear, and sacred to us. That message is given in the passage from the gospel of John above, as it was said in the same sitting.

source:
http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=covenant
 
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