ARCHIVE - You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar

His_saving_Grac

New member
Knight said:
HSG please demonstrate how biblical context on the word 'rebuke' would change anything regarding this thread and discussion.
I will exactly when you can show me why the reading of a concordance overrides the reading of the bible, You seem stuck on this idea, when what I was trying to point out to you is the usage of a concordance instead of knowledge of the entire bible is not beneficial to our faith.

The bible is a whole. It is not a bunch of individual parts to be taken as you see fit. Paul explains this in 2 Corinthians.

Why do you get upset when I ask you to try to see another point of view? I have already shown that I once believed as you do. I know better now. What will it hurt you to become completely familiar with the entire bible?
 

Nathon Detroit

New member
HSG writes...
I will exactly when you can show me why the reading of a concordance overrides the reading of the bible
OK, from now on before either one of us posts we must read the entire Bible, I will start now and get back to you in about two weeks (I am a slow reader). ;)

You continue...
Why do you get upset when I ask you to try to see another point of view?
Who is upset? I am having a ball!
 

beanieboy

New member
Knight - Would you mind providing, at least, a hypothetical situation? Then explain how you would approach it, and the issue you have with those who never want to offend anyone, and explain the effect of your approach.
 

beanieboy

New member
beanieboy said:

In the passage where Jesus was harsh with the Pharissees, he said that they made their converts twice as prepared for hell as they were themselves. Isn't, in KNOWINGLY misusing a passage, and equating it to permission to calling people outside the church vipers, at it's best, irresponsible, and at it worst, just bold face lying?

You never answered this.
 

Goose

New member
His Saving Grace,

Actually, Goose, you ARE boasting of yourself. You did not reply in humbleness, but out of personal pride.

Could you point out where I boasted of myself? Personal pride in what? In God? I am prideful of God. No more than a servent is prideful of his righteous master. If a master forgave you of your debts, would you not rejoice and tell people out in the streets? Or have a high countanence?

You say that satan tempted Christ with scripture, but I have yet to read those verses in our bibles.

What bible are you reading? I just quoted the place in the bible where it is written! I'll do it again. Read the whole thing. It's cool. You mentioned that you might have heard about this or something which is cool. Luke 4:1-13 for all three temptations.

Luke 4:9-13 "And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:And in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season."

This is fundamental christian stuff. Most non-believers know about these verses. I can't believe you're telling Knight about how he needs to get back to the bible and taking things out of context, when you obviously haven't read some key points of it.

You claim satan is a religious leader, which I think you misstated. Satan does not appear in person to people demanding their worship. It is only once even mentioned in the bible, and that was the testing of Jesus. Those who claim to worship him have never met him, and 99.9% of what you see in movies is false.

So just as God is not a religious leader, neither is satan. God demands not our worship, but our love.

I've never physically met Jesus, but in spirit. I'm sure it's the same way with satan. I'm not sure I understand you. Here's The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Editionmy definition of leader.

lead·er (ldr)
n.

1.One that leads or guides.
2.One who is in charge or in command of others.

By this definitions, Jesus leads christians, and he also commands christians. Jesus on earth, teaching the disciples is a good example of leading or guiding. The Ten Commandments(or even the Two Commandments) are a good example of commanding. He will be the King in Heaven! A leader! Absolute authority.

You say that God demands love and not worship. How do you seperate these two? Can you point me in the right direction(bible story or something) if I'm being led astray? Thanks
 
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Nathon Detroit

New member
beanie.... you write...
Knight - Would you mind providing, at least, a hypothetical situation? Then explain how you would approach it, and the issue you have with those who never want to offend anyone, and explain the effect of your approach.
Beanie I am sorry to mislead you, I am doing my best not to. But the situation or example is irrelevant at least in this debate.

The point is.... is the term "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" an appropriate term to use in relation to evangelizing to your loved ones? Is the term an effective strategy guide? And is it a strategy or saying that Jesus would have used.
 

Kate

New member
Why Should We Witness?

Have you ever asked yourself, "Why should I witness?" Several reasons should come to mind. First, because Jesus commands you to: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19). Also, Ezek. 3:11 says, "and go to the exiles, to the sons of your people, and speak to them and tell them, whether they listen or not..."

Second, you must witness because you love the unsaved (if you don't, you should). The most loving thing you can do is present the gospel in hopes of bringing others to salvation. Galatians 5:22 lists love as one of the fruit of the Spirit. It is love's nature to give. Take for example John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..." Love gives, and if you have only a small portion of His love, you will want to give to others.

Third, witness because it is a wise thing to do. Prov. 11:30 says, "...he who is wise wins souls." Now, I know I am not a very wise person. But, since God says I'll be wise to win souls, or try to, then great, let me at it. I want to be wise in God's sight.

Fourth, witness to keep people out of hell. Hell is a terrifying place of utter anguish and eternal separation from God. Those who are not saved go there. Witnessing is an attempt to keep them out of hell.

Fifth, witness because it pleases God and brings glory to His name.

And finally, and most important, witness so they may find the love and fellowship of God (1 John 1:3), the greatest of all treasures. I can think of no greater gift than salvation. It frees the sinner from sin, it delivers the lost from damnation, and it reveals the true and living God to those who don't know Him.

The angels of heaven rejoice greatly when anyone passes from judgment into salvation (Luke 15:10). Shouldn't we as Christians rejoice too? Shouldn't we weep over the lost? Shouldn't we ask the Lord of the field to send laborers into His harvest (Luke 10:2)? Certainly! The salvation of others is the goal of your efforts. The love of God is your motive. Is there anything greater? So, give.

From: http://www.carm.org/evangelism/whywitness.htm
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
goose said:
His Saving Grace,



I've never physically met Jesus, but in spirit. I'm sure it's the same way with satan. I'm not sure I understand you. Here's The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Editionmy definition of leader.

lead·er (ldr)
n.

1.One that leads or guides.
2.One who is in charge or in command of others.

By this definitions, Jesus leads christians, and he also commands christians. Jesus on earth, teaching the disciples is a good example of leading or guiding. The Ten Commandments(or even the Two Commandments) are a good example of commanding. He will be the King in Heaven! A leader! Absolute authority.

You say that God demands love and not worship. How do you seperate these two? Can you point me in the right direction(bible story or something) if I'm being led astray? Thanks
To the part about satan that didn't show up here, I am talking about the scriptures that satan was supposedly quoting. Not where the temptation happened. I am very curious about the temptation written in Luke since, even at best guess, Luke is attributed to having been the Physician companion of Paul. Paul, by his own words was not taught by Jesus, but immediately went out and preached the word.. Since Luke never met Jesus, how did HE, of all paople, find out what happened in secret in the desert between Jesus and satan, when none of the Apostles themselves seemed to have heard of this story.

As to you definition, I'm really not sure what you are trying to get at here. Jesus never said for anyone to worship Him. It is no where in the bible. God is a different story, but not Jesus. There is not one verse in the entire bible talking about worshiping Jesus, but to worship God there are many.

Satan is not woreshipped. Those who claim satanism will admit themselves it is just because they are going against the grain. They do not believe satan exists, nor that he grants anything to their calls. They only want the freedom to do as they please, and most often this is sexual. I know since they tried to enlinst me more than once.

As to the boasting part, Paul explains it very well all through both books of Corinthians. Read through them slowly and you will see what I meant.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
Knight said:
beanie.... you write...Beanie I am sorry to mislead you, I am doing my best not to. But the situation or example is irrelevant at least in this debate.

The point is.... is the term "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" an appropriate term to use in relation to evangelizing to your loved ones? Is the term an effective strategy guide? And is it a strategy or saying that Jesus would have used.
ND, I sincerely want to compliment you on your change of posting style. You have answered BB in humility and in love. Thank you.

I still disagree with your basic premise, but I will say that you are using honey right now, and it is working.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
Kate said:
Why Should We Witness?

Have you ever asked yourself, "Why should I witness?" Several reasons should come to mind. First, because Jesus commands you to: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19). Also, Ezek. 3:11 says, "and go to the exiles, to the sons of your people, and speak to them and tell them, whether they listen or not..."

Second, you must witness because you love the unsaved (if you don't, you should). The most loving thing you can do is present the gospel in hopes of bringing others to salvation. Galatians 5:22 lists love as one of the fruit of the Spirit. It is love's nature to give. Take for example John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..." Love gives, and if you have only a small portion of His love, you will want to give to others.

Third, witness because it is a wise thing to do. Prov. 11:30 says, "...he who is wise wins souls." Now, I know I am not a very wise person. But, since God says I'll be wise to win souls, or try to, then great, let me at it. I want to be wise in God's sight.

Fourth, witness to keep people out of hell. Hell is a terrifying place of utter anguish and eternal separation from God. Those who are not saved go there. Witnessing is an attempt to keep them out of hell.

Fifth, witness because it pleases God and brings glory to His name.

And finally, and most important, witness so they may find the love and fellowship of God (1 John 1:3), the greatest of all treasures. I can think of no greater gift than salvation. It frees the sinner from sin, it delivers the lost from damnation, and it reveals the true and living God to those who don't know Him.

The angels of heaven rejoice greatly when anyone passes from judgment into salvation (Luke 15:10). Shouldn't we as Christians rejoice too? Shouldn't we weep over the lost? Shouldn't we ask the Lord of the field to send laborers into His harvest (Luke 10:2)? Certainly! The salvation of others is the goal of your efforts. The love of God is your motive. Is there anything greater? So, give.

From: http://www.carm.org/evangelism/whywitness.htm
Fantastic post. The only thing that I think should be added, is an explanation on HOW to witness. That seems to be a topic of debate here. Witnessing is great only IF it reaps the rewards of more souls for God. If, in our witnessing, we drive others from God, then we are not witnessing correctly.

You are witnessing correctly (although I personally won't use the fear of hell as a reason. If they won't come for love, then they shouldn't come for fear) but I agree 100% in what you have said.
 

His_saving_Grac

New member
Knight said:
OK, from now on before either one of us posts we must read the entire Bible, I will start now and
get back to you in about two weeks (I am a slow reader).
well OK then, but I have already done this more than once, so that means I can post while you take a break.:p

(If you can honestly read the entire bible in 2 week I honestly commend you. I am a very fast reader who eats up books. I had read several thousand Sci Fi/Fantasy books by the age of 21, but there is no way I could read the entire bible start to finish in two weeks. I could read the NT in 2 weeks, but not the OT.)
 

beanieboy

New member
Knight said:
beanie.... you write...Beanie I am sorry to mislead you, I am doing my best not to. But the situation or example is irrelevant at least in this debate.

The point is.... is the term "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" an appropriate term to use in relation to evangelizing to your loved ones? Is the term an effective strategy guide? And is it a strategy or saying that Jesus would have used.

Jesus did use it. Remember the woman about to be stoned? He wasn't calling her a whore. He wasn't even carrying around a bag of stones looking for someone who deserved to be killed. He just happened to be passing by. And before he told her to sin no more, he said, "neither do I condemn you." Not exactly "vinegar" in my book.

Then again, sometimes JC was pretty harsh. I mean, that whole "vipers brood" thing, the man went off.

So, would he say the honey/vinegar thing? Maybe. I think he would especially apply it to some diciple who was berating someone into submitting to God. "Repent, dang it! REPENT, you stupid whore! Do you want to go to hell? Is that what you want?"
I think JC would say it in an EXAMPLE like that. In fact, I think he would say, "Look at yourself! You're angry. You're name calling. You're spitting poisin. You are making this about you, and it's about her and God. Now, go in the corner for a time out, and think about what you said."

Personally, in my experience, most people respond stronger to encouragement than they do to shame. Most people, when told that they are worth something, actually start to respect themselves.

If someone has a drinking problem, and has crashed their car, been fired from their job because they miss work so much, and their wife has left them, yet insists they don't have a problem, you may have to be a little more harsh. But ultimately, there is little you can do if they refuse to get help.

My brother-in-law used to be rather confrontational with me about my religious beliefs, and as a favor to my mother, would try and get me to believe what he believed. Because he wouldn't listen to me, I told him that I wouldn't listen to him. I would say something like "god is inside all of us." And he would say, "When I look inside, all I see is evil and darkness." And I would say, "That's really sad. I'm sorry that that is all you can see. It must make you feel very bad about yourself. " He would explain that the only good in him was God. I would say, "I thought you had God INSIDE your heart." He would get frustrated and then say something about tempting my eternal fate of doom in hell by my "new age" ideas. I would say, "and you risk joy in this life thinking that all that you are is evil, and all the good in you comes from some other source." And then it got heated. "Uncomfortable," you could say, to the point where I finally just stopped talking. The vinegar thing, in this case, wasn't working. It was obvious. And like a wind blowing harder and harder, trying to get a jacket off a man, I wrapped the jacket even tighter around my body.

My brother was a pastor. His views are open, because they were constantly challenged in school. He listens to me, and because he listens to me, I listen to him. At first I was reluctant to talk to him, but soon I learned that instead of prejudging me, he would listen and try to understand me and accept my ideas, and then give me something that challenged them. He is like the sun that comes out, and because the sun gently shines on the man, the man opens his jacket, and eventually takes it off.

Many people approached Jesus who did not approach the religious leaders. What was it that Jesus did that was different
 

beanieboy

New member
Knight said:
beanie.... you write...Beanie I am sorry to mislead you, I am doing my best not to. But the situation or example is irrelevant at least in this debate.

The point is.... is the term "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" an appropriate term to use in relation to evangelizing to your loved ones? Is the term an effective strategy guide? And is it a strategy or saying that Jesus would have used.

Jesus did use it. Remember the woman about to be stoned? He wasn't calling her a whore. He wasn't even carrying around a bag of stones looking for someone who deserved to be killed. He just happened to be passing by. And before he told her to sin no more, he said, "neither do I condemn you." Not exactly "vinegar" in my book.

Then again, sometimes JC was pretty harsh. I mean, that whole "vipers brood" thing, the man went off.

So, would he say the honey/vinegar thing? Maybe. I think he would especially apply it to some diciple who was berating someone into submitting to God. "Repent, dang it! REPENT, you stupid whore! Do you want to go to hell? Is that what you want?"
I think JC would say it in an EXAMPLE like that. In fact, I think he would say, "Look at yourself! You're angry. You're name calling. You're spitting poisin. You are making this about you, and it's about her and God. Now, go in the corner for a time out, and think about what you said."

Personally, in my experience, most people respond stronger to encouragement than they do to shame. Most people, when told that they are worth something, actually start to respect themselves.

If someone has a drinking problem, and has crashed their car, been fired from their job because they miss work so much, and their wife has left them, yet insists they don't have a problem, you may have to be a little more harsh. But ultimately, there is little you can do if they refuse to get help.

My brother-in-law used to be rather confrontational with me about my religious beliefs, and as a favor to my mother, would try and get me to believe what he believed. Because he wouldn't listen to me, I told him that I wouldn't listen to him. I would say something like "god is inside all of us." And he would say, "When I look inside, all I see is evil and darkness." And I would say, "That's really sad. I'm sorry that that is all you can see. It must make you feel very bad about yourself. " He would explain that the only good in him was God. I would say, "I thought you had God INSIDE your heart." He would get frustrated and then say something about tempting my eternal fate of doom in hell by my "new age" ideas. I would say, "and you risk joy in this life thinking that all that you are is evil, and all the good in you comes from some other source." And then it got heated. "Uncomfortable," you could say, to the point where I finally just stopped talking. The vinegar thing, in this case, wasn't working. It was obvious. And like a wind blowing harder and harder, trying to get a jacket off a man, I wrapped the jacket even tighter around my body.

My brother was a pastor. His views are open, because they were constantly challenged in school. He listens to me, and because he listens to me, I listen to him. At first I was reluctant to talk to him, but soon I learned that instead of prejudging me, he would listen and try to understand me and accept my ideas, and then give me something that challenged them. He is like the sun that comes out, and because the sun gently shines on the man, the man opens his jacket, and eventually takes it off.

Prostitutes, lepers, taxcollects, and the other rejects of soeciety approached Jesus who did not approach the religious leaders. What was it that Jesus did that was different?
 

Atheist_Divine

New member
HSG,
Just a tiny point - King James wasn't the one who added the verse and chapters to the Bible, that came rather earlier. In the middle ages, I think :)
 

Goose

New member
His_saving_Grac said:
To the part about satan that didn't show up here, I am talking about the scriptures that satan was supposedly quoting. Not where the temptation happened.

Psa 91:11 "For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways."

I am very curious about the temptation written in Luke since, even at best guess, Luke is attributed to having been the Physician companion of Paul. Paul, by his own words was not taught by Jesus, but immediately went out and preached the word.. Since Luke never met Jesus, how did HE, of all paople, find out what happened in secret in the desert between Jesus and satan, when none of the Apostles themselves seemed to have heard of this story.

Why would Jesus keep His Word a secret? He came as the light of the world! Not to hide it under a bushel. I'm sure he told his people everything. I wasn't there, only in the Holy Spirit which Jesus had, but I believe on that. Something you obviously don't have a lot of belief in.

You say you're curious? I'd say you're trying to discredit the Word of God! You just haven't spoken it verbaly yet. I see it in your way of speech. I've seen your posts in other forums. I'm not sure what it is, but you let something get in the way of Truth. BeanieBoy speaks more truth than you, and he says he's not even a believer! At least he's TRYING to sort out his thoughts with a somewhat open heart. How can you use the bible as a resource for your "Godly" arguments when you don't even believe that the bible is the Word of God? It's ok if you don't understand something and have a question, but you doubt, and then use your doubting power on Christians in front of non-believers! I've seen your other posts in other forums. You viper! As subtle and wise as a serpent, but venom spits from your tongue and poisons the hearts of many!

As to you definition, I'm really not sure what you are trying to get at here. Jesus never said for anyone to worship Him. It is no where in the bible. God is a different story, but not Jesus. There is not one verse in the entire bible talking about worshiping Jesus, but to worship God there are many.

I never said you should worship Jesus. You worship His Father in Heaven. Am I clear?

Satan is not woreshipped. Those who claim satanism will admit themselves it is just because they are going against the grain. They do not believe satan exists, nor that he grants anything to their calls. They only want the freedom to do as they please, and most often this is sexual. I know since they tried to enlinst me more than once.

As unplausible as it may sound:

The first step in accepting evil is denying it's existence. Accept that evil is on this earth, and abhor it.

As to the boasting part, Paul explains it very well all through both books of Corinthians. Read through them slowly and you will see what I meant.

I read it all again last night. It just re-affirmed my beliefs even more, that you like to take things out of context. Thank you, thank you, Thank YOU for the passion to read it again!
 
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beanieboy

New member
I was thinking about the "Salt of the earth" thing, and the salt in the wound analogy. I don't know if that applies, really. Salt, at the time, was worth a lot of money. It's where 'salary' comes from. It's why wealthy people told their servants that it was bad luck to spill salt. And it is a spice. It enhances things.

One could argue that it cuts like the truth as in 'salt in the wound." But then, I could offer up that salt poured over the ground will kill all plant life and the like, and a person can thirst to death in the ocean because of the salt the water contains.
 

Goose

New member
beanieboy said:


Jesus did use it. Remember the woman about to be stoned? He wasn't calling her a whore. He wasn't even carrying around a bag of stones looking for someone who deserved to be killed. He just happened to be passing by. And before he told her to sin no more, he said, "neither do I condemn you." Not exactly "vinegar" in my book.

Yes, but I've come to find that that wasn't what the passage was about. Let's read the whole thing:

John 8:1-11 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with [his] finger wrote on the ground, [as though he heard them not]. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


I've had a bout with this story myself. At first, I was highly confused because I didn't know what it meant.

The reason why the people took the adulterer to Jesus, wasn't to condemn her, but to condemn Jesus! Let me explain.

Under the Roman government and law of the time, the Jews couldn't use their way of governing to punish. They had to first go to the Roman government and have them tried there. I'm not sure on the exacts, but this is the general idea. Therefore, they had to have an accusation against Jesus in order for him to be punished. It is written in verse 6! Very important, "This they said, tempting him, that they might have accuse him..." They didn't care about the woman! She was a pawn to them. They really wanted Jesus to condemn her to death, so that they could take Jesus to the Romans and say that he was usurping the government by sending this woman to death. but Jesus' "...hour has not come".

Jesus spoke so ill of sin, but he forgave this sinner without her even speaking a word of repentance, let alone not putting her to death. I bet that just acknowledging Him as Lord, like she does in verse 11 she said, "No man, Lord". By calling him this, she accepts His authority and his power to wash away sin. When Jesus says to, "Go and sin no more", she accepts it as coming from a high power, and does it. Jesus had that power while he was on earth. I think of the thief on the cross next to Jesus, in a similar aspect. YOu might want to search and read that.

Another note. Jesus was writing in the ground with his finger. What could he have been writing? The only other time the Lord wrote with his finger, was when he wrote the Ten Commandments with it in stone. I wonder what he was writing? Thou shalt not...:) Isn't this wonderful? This story shows the healing power and righteous judgement of the Lord.

Then again, sometimes JC was pretty harsh. I mean, that whole "vipers brood" thing, the man went off.

So VERY true Beanie! Good job!

My brother was a pastor. His views are open, because they were constantly challenged in school. He listens to me, and because he listens to me, I listen to him. At first I was reluctant to talk to him, but soon I learned that instead of prejudging me, he would listen and try to understand me and accept my ideas, and then give me something that challenged them. He is like the sun that comes out, and because the sun gently shines on the man, the man opens his jacket, and eventually takes it off.

It seems like you need to talk with your brother more! He seems like a good christian to talk to huh? Remember, there are a very small amount of actual christians out there. Of course there are the non-believers, but then there are the people who call themselves christians, who aren't. If your brother speaks the Truth and touches you with the Spirit, talk to him.
 
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Goose

New member
beanieboy said:
I was thinking about the "Salt of the earth" thing, and the salt in the wound analogy. I don't know if that applies, really. Salt, at the time, was worth a lot of money. It's where 'salary' comes from. It's why wealthy people told their servants that it was bad luck to spill salt. And it is a spice. It enhances things.

One could argue that it cuts like the truth as in 'salt in the wound." But then, I could offer up that salt poured over the ground will kill all plant life and the like, and a person can thirst to death in the ocean because of the salt the water contains.

Great points! I pertain it more towards food. Even in the OT when the armies would conquer a nation, they would salt the enemy's fields so nothing could grow there I think.

Mat 5:13 "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men."

I think it has do to with something of modesty and balance. I'm not sure.
 
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