ARCHIVE: Will You Be Celebrating Christmas?

ARCHIVE: Will You Be Celebrating Christmas?

  • Yes

    Votes: 87 81.3%
  • No

    Votes: 20 18.7%

  • Total voters
    107

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Often there are things that we believe to be in the Bible and they are not. Let's consider some of these that pertain to this time of year. Was Jesus born in a stable in Bethlehem? Matthew 2:1 and Luke: 4,7 tell us that He was born in that manner. The Shepherd’s coming to the stable to see the baby Jesus is a fact found in Luke 2:15-16. Were there three wise men and did they visit Jesus in the stable? The Bible does not tell us how many wise men came to see Jesus , however, it does mention three gifts: gold, frankincense, and myrrh (Matt.2: 11) . This causes many to conclude there were three visitors traditionally called Maji. We find they presented these gifts to Him in a house though and not at the stable (Matt. 2:11).

Jesus Christ’s birth is a historical fact . The Bible, however, does not give a specific date. The Bible tells us that Caesar Augustus was emperor and Herod was king at the time of His birth. By using this historical data we can arrive at an approximate year. By certain events that happened, such as shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields, perhaps even the season of the year . Again, we are not able to ascertain though, a specific date.

Are we made to wonder, by this continual festive season, if early Christians at this time, celebrated His birthday? Nothing in the Bible tells us the early church celebrated His birth. The special day of Christmas does not appear in the Bible and was unknown to the early Christians. The idea to celebrate Christmas on December 25 originated in the 4th century. The Catholic Church wanted to rival the festivities of a the competing pagan religion that threatened Christianity's existence. The Roman pagans celebrated the birthday of their sun god, Mithras during this same time of year. Although it was not popular, or even proper, to celebrate people's birthdays in those times, church leaders decided that in order to compete with the pagan celebration, they would order a festival in celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.

Although the actual season of Jesus' birth is thought to be in the Spring, the date of December 25 was chosen as the official birthday celebration as Christ's Mass so that it would compete directly with the rival pagan celebration. Therefore, the direct reason for our December 25th celebration was, in fact, derived from a battle to establish a religious superiority.

Though it is not inherently wrong to observe the day of Christmas as a national holiday, to exchange gifts, to have lighted trees and ornaments, to enjoy the childhood fantasies that come with the season, we should not impose upon the Word of God by making it a religious holiday. We should be directing ourselves spiritually based on authority and not traditions (Col. 3: 17).

JustAChristian
Actually, the best guess, based on certain information given in scripture, is that Jesus was born in the fall.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Hilston

No behavior is "inherently" wrong, JustAChristian. What makes something wrong is its context and motivation.
Hmmmm.... :think: how can you possibly remove context and motivation from behavior? I mean... I get what your trying to say but I think for all practical purposes that statement is sort of odd.
 

Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Knight

Hmmmm.... :think: how can you possibly remove context and motivation from behavior? I mean... I get what your trying to say but I think for all practical purposes that statement is sort of odd.
I agree. I wonder why JustAChristian would even make such a statement as ...

Though it is not inherently wrong to observe the day of Christmas as a national holiday, to exchange gifts, to have lighted trees and ornaments, to enjoy the childhood fantasies that come with the season, ...

Nothing is inherently wrong. But Christmas most certainly is.
 

Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Originally posted by lighthouse

Actually, the best guess, based on certain information given in scripture, is that Jesus was born in the fall.
And that fact makes the Christmas Holy Day all the more symbolic and ceremonial, and therefore even more offensive to God, contrary to Pauline Law, and in violation of the Mystery. Those who observe Christmas are repudiating Christ.
 

Sozo

New member
Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Originally posted by Hilston

Those who observe Christmas are repudiating Christ.
I am almost in agreement with this statement. I can see, to a point, what you are saying, because in reality, Jesus has nothing to do with Christmas. It's not as though God set up the holiday and made His Son the center of it. It is really a man made observance, whereas Jesus has been added. However, I think you protest too much.
 

Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Originally posted by Sozo
I am almost in agreement with this statement. I can see, to a point, what you are saying, because in reality, Jesus has nothing to do with Christmas. It's not as though God set up the holiday and made His Son the center of it. It is really a man made observance, whereas Jesus has been added.
That's not the reason Paul is so emphatically against religious holidays. Rather, it is because the Body of Christ is seated with their Head above all the angelic realm. And to submit to religious ritual, ceremony, symbolism and holidays is to submit to that angelic realm. It is an open denial of the blessings Christ died to secure for His Body.

Originally posted by Sozo
However, I think you protest too much.
I am only conveying what is taught in scripture. One could say the same thing about abortion protestors. The open denial of the Headship of Christ is far far worse than abortion.
 

novice

Who is the stooge now?
Originally posted by Hilston
Those who observe Christmas are repudiating Christ.
It seems to me that sometimes folks want to be as righteous as possible and in an attempt to glorify God they actually go over the top and become prideful and self righteous.

There is nothing wrong with Christmas or any other holiday for that matter since there are no longer any religious holidays that must be observed for salvation. The gospel of grace without works has no set of rules which is the very reason it is grace apart from works.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
 

Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by novice
It seems to me that sometimes folks want to be as righteous as possible and in an attempt to glorify God they actually go over the top and become prideful and self righteous.
Is it prideful or self righteous to want to avoid denying Christ by one's behavior?

Originally posted by novice
There is nothing wrong with Christmas or any other holiday for that matter since there are no longer any religious holidays that must be observed for salvation.
There never were any religious holidays required for salvation! Salvation was always based on grace through faith. Romans 4 and Galatians 3 prove that Abraham was saved by grace through faith long before the Mosaic ordinances were delivered and documented.

Originally posted by novice
The gospel of grace without works has no set of rules which is the very reason it is grace apart from works.
Every dispensation was a gospel of grace without works, just as every dispensation has its specific set of laws. That is why Paul's gospel will judge the men of this age. Not Moses' gospel. Not Noah's gospel.

Originally posted by novice
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
That was true of Abraham as well, novice. So your argument falls flat. Those who celebrate religious holidays are repudiating Christ and are openly denying His Headship.
 

Sozo

New member
Merry Christmas, Jim!...

I'd send you a fruitcake for Christmas, but I can see that there is plenty for everyone at the Hilston house!
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Originally posted by Hilston

And that fact makes the Christmas Holy Day all the more symbolic and ceremonial, and therefore even more offensive to God, contrary to Pauline Law, and in violation of the Mystery. Those who observe Christmas are repudiating Christ.
Pauline Law?
:darwinsm:
 

Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Originally posted by lighthouse

Pauline Law?
:darwinsm:
Paul says "God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Ro 2:16). How would God judge people according to Paul's gospel if there were no Laws in Paul's gospel? Do you forget these?:

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Ga 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
 

Frank Ernest

New member
Hall of Fame
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Originally posted by Hilston

Paul says "God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Ro 2:16). How would God judge people according to Paul's gospel if there were no Laws in Paul's gospel? Do you forget these?:

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Ga 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

This is very confusing. Should we be saying Merry Paulmas?
 

Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
Frank Ernest writes:
This is very confusing. Should we be saying Merry Paulmas?
It's not confusing, Frank Ernest. Not at all. If you weren't more interested in dismissing the argument than understanding it, it would be clear to you that any religious holiday, any religious symbolism, and any religious ceremony is emphatically, unequivocally and strictly prohibited by the Mystery. The answer to your question is obvious.

It's quite natural for people who want to push confrontational scripture away from themselves to prefer murky ambiguity. So of course you want it to be confusing. If you admitted the clarity of the argument, you would be forced to confront scripture and its demands upon your life and its collision with your accepted traditions. Irresponsible immigrants whose native language is not English will do this very thing. If you confront such a person, they pretend they don't understand because of a language barrier. This is just the religious version of "no comprendo."
 

Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
Sozo,

I'm curious. What is your interpretation of this passage?

Romans 14:2-6 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

To what is Paul referring, and how does this apply to the modern church?
 

novice

Who is the stooge now?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Originally posted by Hilston
The open denial of the Headship of Christ is far far worse than abortion.
Oh my gosh......

That might be the most sickening and stupid thing I have ever read on TOL. Truthsmackers where are you?????? Why is this wacko getting a free pass?

Statements like the one above should put Hilston in the TOL hall of shame and he should be associated with all the other wackos that participate on TOL like Freak or OMEGA or H S G or wickwomen or beanieboy or granite or servent101 etc etc etc.

So celebrating Christmas is worse than abortion eh Hilston?

You might get a pass from everyone else here on TOL but you are not getting one from me. You are a first class idiot and an embarrassment to the Body of Christ. :down:
 

Jabez

Friend of Jesus
Originally posted by Hilston

Sozo,

I'm curious. What is your interpretation of this passage?

Romans 14:2-6 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

To what is Paul referring, and how does this apply to the modern church?


According to verse 6 We are fine in celebrateing the birth of the saviour.
 

Crow

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Originally posted by novice

Oh my gosh......

That might be the most sickening and stupid thing I have ever read on TOL. Truthsmackers where are you?????? Why is this wacko getting a free pass?

Statements like the one above should put Hilston in the TOL hall of shame and he should be associated with all the other wackos that participate on TOL like Freak or OMEGA or H S G or wickwomen or beanieboy or granite or servent101 etc etc etc.

So celebrating Christmas is worse than abortion eh Hilston?

You might get a pass from everyone else here on TOL but you are not getting one from me. You are a first class idiot and an embarrassment to the Body of Christ. :down:



Originally posted by Hilston


The open denial of the Headship of Christ is far far worse than abortion.

That is, indeed, the one of the most shockingly insane things I have ever heard issue from a Christian's mouth. (or keyboard) :vomit: Equating celebrating Christmas to denying Christ's headship and worse than abortion.

In regards to this passage you quoted earlier, Hilston-

Romans 14:2-6 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.


I'm saddened at your inability to see what is being said here. All that God receives are His. All. This petty business of whether one God hath accepted eats or does not, celebrates or not is not a salvatory issue, a crime against God, etc. God hath accepted him.
 
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Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Originally posted by novice
Oh my gosh......

That might be the most sickening and stupid thing I have ever read on TOL.
Back up your charges, novice. Don't just make bald assertions.

Originally posted by novice
Truthsmackers where are you?????? Why is this wacko getting a free pass?
Because they have no argument. The scriptures are unequivocal on the severity of dispensational sins. Those who glibly and blithely pay only lipservice to them do not have a high view of God's Word or His commands. And it's indefensible.

Originally posted by novice
Statements like the one above should put Hilston in the TOL hall of shame and he should be associated with all the other wackos that participate on TOL like Freak or OMEGA or H S G or wickwomen or beanieboy or granite or servent101 etc etc etc.
This is characteristic of lazy and sloppy thinkers. If you can demonize and marginalize the opposition by lumping them together with other already-hated people, then you don't have to think. You don't have to use your judgment. You don't have to study God's Word. Sad to say, these kinds of offenses are far worse than what I've been accused of, but will likely never end up in the dreaded "Hall of Shame."

Originally posted by novice
So celebrating Christmas is worse than abortion eh Hilston?
Of course it is! Read your Bible. Use your brain. Think. It's people like you, novice, who rebelled against God and Moses for executing a man for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Don't be like the sons of Korah.

Originally posted by novice
You might get a pass from everyone else here on TOL but you are not getting one from me. You are a first class idiot and an embarrassment to the Body of Christ. :down:
Is that what you call "truthsmacking"? You don't offer a single statement of God's Word? You don't even attempt to make a biblical refutation of my argument? Where's the truth you're supposed to be smacking me with, novice? Don't just assert, novice. Prove your claims or shut your Christmas cake-hole.
 

Lucky

New member
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by novice

Why is this wacko getting a free pass?
His arguments have been refuted so many times, what else is there to do but watch as he makes a fool of himself? :chuckle:
 

Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How The Christian Should Celebrate Christmas.

Originally posted by Crow

That is, indeed, the one of the most shockingly insane things I have ever heard issue from a Christian's mouth. (or keyboard) :vomit: Equating celebrating Christmas to denying Christ's headship ...
It's what Paul says, Crow. Religious holidays are an open denial of Christ's headship. Prove otherwise.

Originally posted by Crow ... and worse than abortion.
Where's your proof to the contrary, Crow? Would you say the same thing about Moses stoning a man for violating the Sabbath?

Originally posted by Crow
In regards to this passage you quoted earlier, Hilston-

Romans 14:2-6 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
I cited the verse for a specific reason: To find out what Sozo believes about the verse. You, however, obviously don't understand the intent or context of the verse. It doesn't apply today. Neither do 1Co 8 and the end of 1Co 10. These verses pertained to the co-existence of elect Jews, Gentiles and members of the Body of Christ in the same congregation. There are no longer elect Jews or Gentiles of the Kingdom dispensation alive, so these passages no longer obtain.

Originally posted by Crow
I'm saddened at your inability to see what is being said here. All that God receives are His. All. This petty business of whether one God hath accepted eats or does not, celebrates or not is not a salvatory issue, a crime against God, etc. God hath accepted him.
Again, you miss the point of the passage. Paul is affirming the various dispensational laws for each of God's elect. It is right and proper for the Jew to observe food restrictions because that is what Moses commanded. It is right and proper for the member of the Body of Christ to eat pork and meat sacrificed to idols. But when these dispensational prescriptions come in conflict, as we see in Rome, then Paul says the weaker brother (the Jew) is to be respected and honored, and no offense is to be made toward him.

For you newcomers, please have a look at the previous posts before posting. I'm sure you don't want to re-hash old obliterated arguments.
 
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