The site said the same hting as my calendar. Did you get the days mixed up in your post?
ARCHIVE: Will You Be Celebrating Christmas?
- Thread starter Lucky
- Start date
Then it's not communion. Is it? It's just dinner.
No. It's no mor about Him than any other day, and it's not His birthday.
If you weren't religious and legalistic about it then I could see where you're coming from.
That's just the first question, Hilston. And you didn't answer it. Would you, please?
You've not being careful here, Yorzhik. The answer to your question is within the very examples you gave.
- Sexual behavior is not always wrong. But prostitution is.
- Killing animals for food is not always wrong. But sacrificing to idols is.
- Celebrating the anniversary of someone's birth is not always wrong. But celebrating Christ-Mass is.
Exactly. My wife and I grew up celebrating Thanksgiving in a completely non-religious context. It was "turkey day" and "Lions-Cowboys day" as far as we were concerned. Historically, we thought it wasn't a giving of thanks to God, but to the Indians for their help and friendship in the early days of this country. I thought it was as innocuous as the 4th of July.
When we moved to Pittsburgh and began to realize that the vast majority of the homeschoolers we associate with are hardcore ceremonialists, we started to re-think it. Our church friends who do not celebrate thanksgiving had told us about their experiences with these types of people. We had never encountered them before. Having seen now firsthand, and living in a community that is full-bore religious ceremony about thanksgiving, we decided that we wanted nothing to do with it, to "abstain from all appearance of evil."
That's incorrect. In and of itself, religious celebrations are emphatically, unequivocally, and strictly forbidden.
Yorzhik, your statement equates "eating meat sacrificed to idols" with "religious celebrations." You said, "Just like ...", but it is NOT "just like". I eat the leftover Christmas cookies that people bring to work after the holidays. That is "just like" eating meat sacrificed to idols. Celebrating Christmas is "just like" sacrificing to idols.
People keep quoting this as if we should just throw all prohibitions out the window. Is it OK to steal if you're not under the law? Is it OK to commit adultery if you're not under the law? If not, then neither is it OK to celebrate Christmas if you're not under the law.
Paul didn't make them up, Yorzhik. These laws were held in silence, kept absolutely secret from the foundation of the world, designed and reserved specifically for the Body of Christ. This cannot be missed. Please see the following references: Ro 11:25 16:25,26 1Co 2:7 Eph 1:9 3:3-9 5:32 6:19 Col 1:26,27 2:2 4:3 1Ti 3:9,16. Paul receved the laws of the Mystery directly from the risen and glorified Christ Himself, in an unprecedented manner, apart from angelic mediation, apart from ritual, ceremony, symbolism, and holiday. That's the point. The Body of Christ, of which Paul was the charter member, has a heavenly hope, not an earthly one (as Israel and the nations). Therefore, we have direct, unmediated access to the Godhead. For Israel, they had many mediators, many priests, many intermediary steps in their worship (ceremony, symbolism, etc.). For the Body of Christ, there is but one Mediator between God and man: Christ Jesus Himself.
Hilston wrote regarding his church's fellowship meal:
It's absolutely non-symbolic. The hotdogs and sauerkraut symbolize nothing. The Mountain Dew and coffee symbolize nothing. The coconut cream pie and the blackforest cake symbolize nothing. We eat together because that's what fellowship is partly about : Satisfying the hunger of the spirit for God's word, satisfying the hunger of the soul for the company of the saints, and satisfying the hunger of the body for good food, with the added bonus of sharing it with people we love.
Hilston wrote:
... Christ-Mass is especially about Him because it's His birthday, right?
Now there's an admission that will come back to haunt you someday.
It's absolutely non-symbolic. The hotdogs and sauerkraut symbolize nothing. The Mountain Dew and coffee symbolize nothing. The coconut cream pie and the blackforest cake symbolize nothing. We eat together because that's what fellowship is partly about : Satisfying the hunger of the spirit for God's word, satisfying the hunger of the soul for the company of the saints, and satisfying the hunger of the body for good food, with the added bonus of sharing it with people we love.
"Just dinner"? Passover was a dinner, Lighthouse. So is the meal Paul describes in 1Co 11. What churches do today is a Mithraic pagan ritual of ascetism, Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh (Col 2:23). See, you've misapplied the word "just" in your statement. It should rather be used this way: If you're not having a hunger-satisfying meal with fellow believers, it's "just a ceremony," and that is anti-biblical angel worship by which you separate yourself from Christ.
Hilston wrote:
... Christ-Mass is especially about Him because it's His birthday, right?
Oooo kay. So you're celebrating Christ's birthday on a day that's not His birthday. So it's even MORE symbolic and ritualistic than previously assessed. It doesn't help you, Lighthouse, that it isn't His actual birthday. It makes it worse.
Hilston replied:
Now there's an admission that will come back to haunt you someday.
Of course celebrating/observing Christmas profits us nothing! What have I been saying the whole time, Lighthouse? Have you been hitting the crackpipe? What will your second question be: "Can we all agree that Jesus is the Son of God?"?
Jim, I respectfully disagree.
I really don't think you have been able to make your case that celebrating holidays is forbidden.
At least not the way most people celebrate holidays.
I would agree with you 100% that if anyone out there is celebrating holidays for the same reason that Israel observed certain days (as a work) then they are indeed putting themselves under the law and therefore sinning.
But I really don't know anyone who thinks celebrating holidays is necessary for salvation. Do you? Other than groups that already think they need to perform works like Messianic Jews etc. I guess you could throw some Catholics into this group based on their view that missing mass is sinful but again that falls into the broader problem of works based faith in general.
The biblical case you have laid out is excellent when applied to those that think holidays are necessary for salvation. I just don't think its a good argument for any other case.
I realize that. But what I am saying is I do not think the biblical evidence supports Jim's assertion.
I do not buy Hilstions laws of grace (so to speak).
1] Communion is based on the point in the passover meal that Christ took the bread and the wine, and made specific references to them, and how He related them to His coming sacrafice.
2] What you do is not "communion", plain andd simple. Not by the definition the ceremony is given. I'm not saying I disagree with your assertations, but it shouldn't be called communion, in that sense. You want to stay away from all experiences, don't you?
And this is the specific reason I'm considering not celebrating Christmas as His birthday. But that doesn't exclude me from getting presents from my family, or giving them. Even you can't argue that my unsaved family members aren't celebrating a religious event.
Nope. But I will ask it when everyone else has responded. Paul wrote that observing the works of the law for salvation would profit us nothing, and if we all agree that observing/celebrating Christmas profits us nothing pertaininig to salvation, then we can move on to my next point.
:Brandon:
The site said the same hting as my calendar. Did you get the days mixed up in your post?
FrankiE:
Prolly. I plead a "senior
moment."
The site said the same hting as my calendar. Did you get the days mixed up in your post?
FrankiE:
Prolly. I plead a "senior
moment."
Hilston:
Celebrating a religious holiday or being water baptized are much more offensive to God than murder or prostitution because they are dispensationally specific, a direct affront to the Lawmaker and Creator of all.
FrankiE:
Baptism
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Celebrating religious holidays
Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Celebrating a religious holiday or being water baptized are much more offensive to God than murder or prostitution because they are dispensationally specific, a direct affront to the Lawmaker and Creator of all.
FrankiE:
Baptism
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Celebrating religious holidays
Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mat 26:19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.
Mat 26:20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
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That is false. The fellowship to which Paul referred was a feast. See the following link: The Lord's Table/Supper in I Cor. 10/11
My view is biblical. My practice is biblical. The ceremony observed by the vast majority of Christendumb is a Mithraic ascetic pagan rite.
No, just unbiblical and anti-biblical ones, such as ritualistic communion and Christ-Mass celebrations.
That's like saying "I'm not offering a blood sacrifice to an idol as a blood sacrifice to an idol."
Why do you give and get presents on Christ-Mass day?
Nor would I. Why would I?
Do you think "profits us nothing" is the same as "go ahead and do it as long as you don't rely on it for salvation"?
Hilston wrote: Celebrating a religious holiday or being water baptized are much more offensive to God than murder or prostitution because they are dispensationally specific, a direct affront to the Lawmaker and Creator of all.
Thank you for proving my point. All of the verses you quoted belong to the previous dispensation, in which religious ceremonies were proper. You will not find these in Paul's epistles, the scripture to the Body of Christ. Moreover, you will find emphatic prohibitions against religious ceremonies, water rites, and holidays.
For the elect, the only consequence would be a loss of rewards going into eternity.
The trouble is, those who defiantly persist in doing things contrary to scripture, despite ample warning, may be manifesting that they are not among the elect. That's not my call, however, nor do I go around making that assessment. It is should be a personal concern for every professing believer to make one's "calling and election sure." By persisting in unbiblical behavior, one moves in the opposite direction: Making their calling and election more uncertain, and possibly manifesting their reprobation.
That's one possibility. Another possibility is that the elect who continue to observe Xmas are uneasy and uncomfortable about it and they're not quite sure why. For them, if they eventually hear or read about the distinctiveness of Paul's gospel and how it frees them from the trappings of religious holidays, they'll embrace it and never look back. Another possibility is that many elect are thoroughly deluded and convince themselves to enjoy these quasi-christianized syncretistic pagan holidays, but they continue to make progress in other areas of theology (since making progress is a mark of salvation and inevitable among the elect). I still think, deep down, the truly elect and regenerated person is bothered by all religious ceremonies, rituals, symbolisms and holidays, even if he cannot figure out why. For those who defiantly declare to me, "I'm a Christian and these things don't bother me one bit," I simply say or think to myself, "It's not my job to sort them out. It's God's."
Originally posted by Frank Ernest
Baptism ... Mat 3:15-17 ... Joh 3:22 ... Act 9:17,18 ...
Celebrating religious holidays ... Mat 26:17-21
Hilston:
"Thank you for proving my point. All of the verses you quoted belong to the previous dispensation, in which religious ceremonies were proper. You will not find these in Paul's epistles, the scripture to the Body of Christ. Moreover, you will find emphatic prohibitions against religious ceremonies, water rites, and holidays. "
FrankiE:
Paul says the Christ gave us bad example?
Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Baptism ... Mat 3:15-17 ... Joh 3:22 ... Act 9:17,18 ...
Celebrating religious holidays ... Mat 26:17-21
Hilston:
"Thank you for proving my point. All of the verses you quoted belong to the previous dispensation, in which religious ceremonies were proper. You will not find these in Paul's epistles, the scripture to the Body of Christ. Moreover, you will find emphatic prohibitions against religious ceremonies, water rites, and holidays. "
FrankiE:
Paul says the Christ gave us bad example?
Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Hilston wrote:
"Thank you for proving my point. All of the verses you quoted belong to the previous dispensation, in which religious ceremonies were proper. You will not find these in Paul's epistles, the scripture to the Body of Christ. Moreover, you will find emphatic prohibitions against religious ceremonies, water rites, and holidays. "
The earthly Christ is not our example, just as Noah and Moses are not our examples. We are to follow the risen Christ, and Paul is our example. We don't follow Jesus the way Peter did. Otherwise, we'd be going out two-by-two, preaching the gospel of the kingdom to the nations, observing everything whatsoever Jesus commanded (which included water baptism, tithing, almsgiving, offering blood sacrifices and burnt offerings, observing food restrictions, etc., Mt. 28:19,20 23:1-3).
Paul specifies following the risen Christ in a manner different from how the disciples followed the earthly Christ. He even uses a different Greek word:
1Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
(Compare 1Co 4:14-17 Php 3:17 4:9 1Th 1:5,6 2Th 3:7-9 1Ti 1:16 2Ti 1:13 3:10)
Paul goes on to say, "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you (1Co 11:2)." He is speaking of the distinctive non-Jewish/non-Gentile gospel that is above ceremonies, rituals, symbolisms and holidays. He calls it "my gospel," and it is emphatically distinct from that of Noah and Moses. See Ro 2:16 16:25,26 2Ti 2:8 and compare to the previous references.
You continue to prove my point for me. Jesus taught and commanded them to observe the Passover sacrifice and feast as an ordinance, even after His death and resurrection. If this is what Jesus taught them to observe and if this is what Christendumb is supposed to be observing to this day, where are the feasts? Where are the multiple courses and multiple ceremonial cups and the singing of the Hallel that are taught in the gospels? What is taught and practiced today is a sycretism of pagan and Jewish rituals and is a direct affront upon God's law for the Body of Christ. By observing rituals and holidays, Christendumb has separated itself from Christ, trading the traditions of God for the traditions of men, nullifying God's word and robbing from Israel's Hope by co-opting rituals and practices that Paul emphatically commanded to be shunned by the Body of Christ.
For Biblical teachings on the Passover and Paul's communion meals, see the following link: The Lord's Supper in Light of Sola Scriptura
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