Any other preterists want to chime in on this stuff? Or is Dee Dee our lone crop circle hold out?
ARCHIVE: The "Great tribulation" and the Testimony of the Early Church Fathers
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
D
Dee Dee Warren
Guest
Cool. I will let you know. And if I cannot locate it, I will write something. I need to have something at hand as a text file anyways so this is useful for me to do.
Other preterists care to respond?
Other preterists care to respond?
Since Dee Dee is very busy I am curious as to what other preterists might say in response to this post of mine which was getting lost in the shuffle.....
In fact... for this very reason... preterism fails miserably! Since we know for a fact that many events have happened since the the destruction of Jerusalem that have been FAAARRRRRR worse in every respect.
Furthermore....
Even if "such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." were a figure of speech (as you assert) the figure of speech would have meaning. That meaning would be that the Great Tribulation would be a INCREDIBLE event! Huge, massive and certainly close to one of the worst events on the face of the planet!
The figure of speech wouldn't mean the event was a minor blip in the radar of world history.
Clearly an event such as....
Oh... maybe "a third of mankind was killed" is another figure of speech?
Other preterists care to respond?
Since Dee Dee is very busy I am curious as to what other preterists might say in response to this post of mine which was getting lost in the shuffle.....
That is a completely flawed line of thinking! I am shocked I even read it! Totally illogical! The Great Tribulation was described as an event without equal.... there is no reason to think otherwise. There is no logical reason that after the event was over another event like it would never happen again for an eternity.
In fact... for this very reason... preterism fails miserably! Since we know for a fact that many events have happened since the the destruction of Jerusalem that have been FAAARRRRRR worse in every respect.
Furthermore....
Even if "such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." were a figure of speech (as you assert) the figure of speech would have meaning. That meaning would be that the Great Tribulation would be a INCREDIBLE event! Huge, massive and certainly close to one of the worst events on the face of the planet!
The figure of speech wouldn't mean the event was a minor blip in the radar of world history.
Clearly an event such as....
Would be noticed by more than a handful of preterists.
Oh... maybe "a third of mankind was killed" is another figure of speech?
D
Dee Dee Warren
Guest
Knight, that one is in my pile to get to somewhat soon.... it will not take much time. But by all means, I would love to hear the opinions of other preterists on that.
Faramir
New member
Well Dee Dee, I was going to let you take this (because you do it so well
), but I will be glad to chime in. Right now I am in the middle of cooking supper and can't stay long enough to give the question the treatment it deserves. When I am finished with supper (and if my wife lets me
), I will try to make the time to answer this question.
Faramir
New member
Knight:
While I have a little time let me make sure what question you want answered. I assume that you want an explanation of how something that sounds as devastating as the Great Trib. could be the simple destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
If I don't hear otherwise from you, I will assume this is the issue to be discussed.
Thanks,
Faramir
Fellow Steward of Christ
While I have a little time let me make sure what question you want answered. I assume that you want an explanation of how something that sounds as devastating as the Great Trib. could be the simple destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.
If I don't hear otherwise from you, I will assume this is the issue to be discussed.
Thanks,
Faramir
Fellow Steward of Christ
People will travel so far to purchase a lemon. And when they do.... they scream and argue that it really isn't a lemon. Generally people feel so bad that they bought the lemon in the first place they spend the rest of their life attempting to convince everyone else to buy a lemon just like theirs.
Faramir
New member
Originally posted by Knight
People will travel so far to purchase a lemon. And when they do.... they scream and argue that it really isn't a lemon. Generally people feel so bad that they bought the lemon in the first place they spend the rest of their life attempting to convince everyone else to buy a lemon just like theirs.
Yes, but some of us finally admit we have a lemon, and find something solid and dependable
Maybe there is hope for you yet
Former Dipensationalist,
Faramir
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Preterists are so busy today...
Preterists are so busy today...
When did the following events occur:
"By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed "
"And he (the beast) exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,and caused the earth and them who dwelleth on it to worship the first beast,whose deadly wound was healed.And he doeth great wonders,so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.And deceiveth them that dwell on earth by the means of those miracles...and he causeth all,both small and great,rich and poor,free and enslaved,to receive a mark on their right hand,or in their foreheads,and that no man might buy or sell,except he that had the mark,or the name of the beast,or the number of his name"
Oh and just so you know.... when your done spiritualizing the above two passages I have about 8 thousand other reasons why The Great Tribulation has not already occurred. Happy hunting!
Preterists are so busy today...
You can answer these two points....
When did the following events occur:
"By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed "
"And he (the beast) exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,and caused the earth and them who dwelleth on it to worship the first beast,whose deadly wound was healed.And he doeth great wonders,so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.And deceiveth them that dwell on earth by the means of those miracles...and he causeth all,both small and great,rich and poor,free and enslaved,to receive a mark on their right hand,or in their foreheads,and that no man might buy or sell,except he that had the mark,or the name of the beast,or the number of his name"
Oh and just so you know.... when your done spiritualizing the above two passages I have about 8 thousand other reasons why The Great Tribulation has not already occurred. Happy hunting!
Isn't odd that every preterist claims to be a former "dispensationalist"? Yet not a single preterist I have run into even knows what dispensationalism is really all about? (no offense Dee Dee but its painfully obvious)
Kinda like every atheist I run into claims to be a former Christian.
There are still marbles beneath that visor
There are still marbles beneath that visor
Tut tut. Knight asked for more preterists to stop in and make his day? Oh dear. Did I just hear a can opener?
I shall return in the morning once I have read back through this exchange...meanwhile one may peruse
weblinks deleted...
There goes Knight again, reading a hyperbolic ancient text like a modern literal news report... :doh:
JP
There are still marbles beneath that visor
Tut tut. Knight asked for more preterists to stop in and make his day? Oh dear. Did I just hear a can opener?
I shall return in the morning once I have read back through this exchange...meanwhile one may peruse
weblinks deleted...
There goes Knight again, reading a hyperbolic ancient text like a modern literal news report... :doh:
JP
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Re: There are still marbles beneath that visor
Re: There are still marbles beneath that visor
I have already warned you before on two other occasions that we do not allow people to simply send our visitors to another website (especially when its their own). If you have a point to make, please make it. If you don't have a point to make please spare us the bandwidth. If you would like to add your web links along with your point as a further reference then that is fine.
Re: There are still marbles beneath that visor
Oh goody another super informative post from Mr. Holding.Originally posted by jpholding
Tut tut. Knight asked for more preterists to stop in and make his day? Oh dear. Did I just hear a can opener?
I shall return in the morning once I have read back through this exchange...meanwhile one may peruse
weblinks deleted....
There goes Knight again, reading a hyperbolic ancient text like a modern literal news report... :doh:
JP
I have already warned you before on two other occasions that we do not allow people to simply send our visitors to another website (especially when its their own). If you have a point to make, please make it. If you don't have a point to make please spare us the bandwidth. If you would like to add your web links along with your point as a further reference then that is fine.
Re: Oh,
Re: Oh,
Re: Oh,
Further proving my point that preterists haven't a clue as to what dispensationalism is all about. Thanks for the demonstration JP!
Faramir
New member
Re: There are still marbles beneath that visor
Re: There are still marbles beneath that visor
Thanks JP you da man!!!
Like I said I will try to answer the best I can. Revelation isn't really my forte, neither is Daniel, but I will attempt an answer tonight if I have time.
And before anyone accuses me of making an excuse, I have said elswhere on this board (one of my very first post) that I am weak in Revelation, but the best way to get strong is to work out. :thumb:
Re: There are still marbles beneath that visor
Originally posted by jpholding
Tut tut. Knight asked for more preterists to stop in and make his day? Oh dear. Did I just hear a can opener?
I shall return in the morning once I have read back through this exchange...meanwhile one may peruse
links deleted
There goes Knight again, reading a hyperbolic ancient text like a modern literal news report... :doh:
JP
Thanks JP you da man!!!
Like I said I will try to answer the best I can. Revelation isn't really my forte, neither is Daniel, but I will attempt an answer tonight if I have time.
And before anyone accuses me of making an excuse, I have said elswhere on this board (one of my very first post) that I am weak in Revelation, but the best way to get strong is to work out. :thumb:
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Just so ya'all know I will continue to delete the shameless plugs for other websites.
And if this offense continues with certain individuals they will be banned from TOL.
You can use weblinks as references to the points you make HERE (at TOL) but you cannot simply let a weblink speak for you. That isn't how TheologyOnLine works. TheologyOnLine is a point vs. counter point debate forum that has been in place since our inception.
Isn't that right Dee Dee? TOL moderator?
And if this offense continues with certain individuals they will be banned from TOL.
You can use weblinks as references to the points you make HERE (at TOL) but you cannot simply let a weblink speak for you. That isn't how TheologyOnLine works. TheologyOnLine is a point vs. counter point debate forum that has been in place since our inception.
Isn't that right Dee Dee? TOL moderator?
A rose is a rose...unless it isn't in my view...
A rose is a rose...unless it isn't in my view...
I find it interesting how the preterists are strictly and woodenly, word for word, literalist on some issues (the ones they have to read into them to make their points), and yet vastly liberal with spiritualizing others, that don’t go along with their theology?
A rose is a rose...unless it isn't in my view...
I find it interesting how the preterists are strictly and woodenly, word for word, literalist on some issues (the ones they have to read into them to make their points), and yet vastly liberal with spiritualizing others, that don’t go along with their theology?
Faramir
New member
Re: Preterists are so busy today...
Re: Preterists are so busy today...
Well here goes.
I think that Dee Dee as already answered this earlier in this thread:
The Revelation is written with apocalyptic language which is characterized by symbolism, hyperbole, and superlative language (just like much of OT prophecy). Any first century Jew would recognize that. And since it was written by a first century Jew, maybe we should try to read it through the eyes of one.
The Josephus quote above, is similar to Jesus' description of the tribulation. Could it be possible that they are describing the same event. This use of apocalyptic language is also clearly found in Revelation.
I hate to have most of my post being a quote of Dee Dee, but she said what I would have said (only much better). The above quote applies equally to Revelation as it does to the OD. This was brought up by Dee Dee, but never really addressed by any Dispensationalist.
This post is already to long. I will continue with a new post.
Re: Preterists are so busy today...
Well here goes.
Originally posted by Knight
You can answer these two points....
When did the following events occur:
"By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed "
"And he (the beast) exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,and caused the earth and them who dwelleth on it to worship the first beast,whose deadly wound was healed.And he doeth great wonders,so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.And deceiveth them that dwell on earth by the means of those miracles...and he causeth all,both small and great,rich and poor,free and enslaved,to receive a mark on their right hand,or in their foreheads,and that no man might buy or sell,except he that had the mark,or the name of the beast,or the number of his name"
Oh and just so you know.... when your done spiritualizing the above two passages I have about 8 thousand other reasons why The Great Tribulation has not already occurred. Happy hunting!
I think that Dee Dee as already answered this earlier in this thread:
The Revelation is written with apocalyptic language which is characterized by symbolism, hyperbole, and superlative language (just like much of OT prophecy). Any first century Jew would recognize that. And since it was written by a first century Jew, maybe we should try to read it through the eyes of one.
The Josephus quote above, is similar to Jesus' description of the tribulation. Could it be possible that they are describing the same event. This use of apocalyptic language is also clearly found in Revelation.
I hate to have most of my post being a quote of Dee Dee, but she said what I would have said (only much better). The above quote applies equally to Revelation as it does to the OD. This was brought up by Dee Dee, but never really addressed by any Dispensationalist.
This post is already to long. I will continue with a new post.
Faramir
New member
Continued from last post:
Knight in an earlier post you claimed that the Preterist "spiritualized" Revelation. Like "spirtualizing" is automatically bad.
When reading anything, it is important to take the work in context. Revelation was written by a first century Jew, largely in apocalyptic language. A style that is characterized by hyperbole, superlative language, and symbolism (although some things like time indicators are intended to be taken literally when used in context with apocalyptic writing) . So what you refer to as "spirtualizing" is actually reading the text as it was intended to be read.
Do you believe that all OT prophecies that talk about stars falling, and the sun going dark are referring to future events? If not, then you must not take those literally. If you do not take those literally, than why do you insist on taking Revelation (which is written in a similar style) literally.
I really hoped to give a more detailed response, but I really need to see to family matters. I will try to respond further tomorrow.
Knight in an earlier post you claimed that the Preterist "spiritualized" Revelation. Like "spirtualizing" is automatically bad.
When reading anything, it is important to take the work in context. Revelation was written by a first century Jew, largely in apocalyptic language. A style that is characterized by hyperbole, superlative language, and symbolism (although some things like time indicators are intended to be taken literally when used in context with apocalyptic writing
) . So what you refer to as "spirtualizing" is actually reading the text as it was intended to be read. Do you believe that all OT prophecies that talk about stars falling, and the sun going dark are referring to future events? If not, then you must not take those literally. If you do not take those literally, than why do you insist on taking Revelation (which is written in a similar style) literally.
I really hoped to give a more detailed response, but I really need to see to family matters. I will try to respond further tomorrow.