themuzicman
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I find it odd that Mr. Religion confuses God as a contingent being with God as a necessary being who exercises contingencies.
Muz
Muz
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Ask Mr. Religion
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A contingent being is not a necessary being. Start here -- one of rationalist Clete's favorite biblical supplements.
patman
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My father-in-law was hospitalized over night with a man who ended up dyeing of cancer that morning.
Before long, the room was filled with teary eyed family members, and a hysterically sad daughter. One family member grabbed her saying, "Remember, God will not put on us any more than we can handle. Just lift your hands to God."
Single handedly the well intending family member blamed God for the death of the father, the weight of the agony the daughter was in and proposed the solution was praising God.
The daughter was not consoled.
Odd.
Before long, the room was filled with teary eyed family members, and a hysterically sad daughter. One family member grabbed her saying, "Remember, God will not put on us any more than we can handle. Just lift your hands to God."
Single handedly the well intending family member blamed God for the death of the father, the weight of the agony the daughter was in and proposed the solution was praising God.
The daughter was not consoled.
Odd.
Philetus
New member
GR, I know you don't like long posts but indulge me at least this one.
My friend,
Isn't it amusing how often rejection of a doctrine is equated with lack of understanding it, when in reality it is often lack of understanding God's straight-forward offer of salvation that leads to so many confusing and divisive doctrines?
Being in the minority isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes I actually find myself in very good company. Here again I affirm our agreement rejecting the 'doctrine' of original sin. Personally, I have never felt any conviction of the Holy Spirit to confess Adam's or anyone else's sin for that matter. Only my own! I reject 'original' sin as a doctrine and recognize all my sins are pretty much 'original' with me.
lain: It is amazing when you stop to think how much 'residual thinking' invades our reading of scripture from centuries of hair splinting, church dividing junk. I think that Open Theism has opened the door for a lot of honest and much needed discussion of the simple Gospel of Jesus. Something we have seen very little of here in the second part of this thread. Even we Open Theists seem to have sacred cows that are off limits to discussion.
Because of Adam’s sin God in mercy subjected all of creation to futility in order to offer life to all on the very same terms … faith in a sinless savior! (God is no respecter of persons.) For me that fits so well with the basic claims of Open Theism and simplifies what has been made utter confusion by all the junk we have piled on over centuries as this and other threads so clearly demonstrate. Can we even begin to imagine how confusing it would be if God had made His judgment of sins on a case by case, individual basis and then offered salvation to some and not to others. I suspect we would have all been a lot more judgmental than we are (if one can even imagine that).
We are born into a fallen world that in mercy has been subjected to futility. Temptation resides in our own heart and finds potential expression everywhere … in the things God has made. However, God didn’t make them tempting. Having been given dominion over things, the temptation arises in thinking that God hasn’t set boundaries on how we acquire and use (exercise dominion over) things. We steal and horde and thus deny our neighbor’s right to exist. We fall in love with things and use people to get them. We even worship things and the celebrities who seem to have more things than others. We simply no longer trust God for our daily bread. We worry more about what we will eat and what we will wear than whether our neighbor is hungry or naked. In short our propensity to sin is quickly learned by thinking we must survive in a dog eat dog world.
Enter the Gospel; the Sermon on the Mount; the sinless one who lays down his life for whosoever; the greatest most undeserved offer ever made. What an amazing God.
Thanks for being bold and faithful,
Philetus
A wise man once said that one person's heretic is another's hero.
Misery likes company.
I even read your long post and appreciate your heart and your head.
We have to go with our convictions, yet be open lest we are wrong and need our ideas refined.
Conviction without compromise and teachability/humility are two wings of a bird (help me refine this thought so we can market a T-shirt and get rich)?
Misery likes company.
I even read your long post and appreciate your heart and your head.
We have to go with our convictions, yet be open lest we are wrong and need our ideas refined.
Conviction without compromise and teachability/humility are two wings of a bird (help me refine this thought so we can market a T-shirt and get rich)?
Ask Mr. Religion
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themuzicman
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Again, Mr. Religion commits a category error, failing to distinguish between God's being and God's decisions. Perhaps he is incapable of it.
Muz
Philetus
New member
Interesting that the article (AMR linked to) was less than favorable to AMR's medieval position on God's simplicity and God's knowledge (divine thought) as the ground of existence. I don't know if he is incapable of distinguishing between the two, (I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt) but, I'm convinced that he is unwilling to admit (even to himself) that his view is not as air tight as he wishes us to believe he thinks it to be.
no not that one, this one: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/god-necessary-being/
I'm fairly sure your side is responsible for many of them ...
My side? What's my side?
Is the future entirely settled or is it, at least somewhat, open?
From my perspective, not knowing the beginning from the end, anything can happen. From God's perspective, knowing the beginning from the end, only what He says/said will happen, will happen.
So, what's my side?
I think it's important that we be precise as possible.
God declares the end from the beginning.
And furthermore, let's not stretch verses too far. A verse regarding God's anger toward Israel shouldn't be blown up into meaning far more than what is actually being said.
Isaiah 46:1 Bel bows down, Nebo stoops; Their idols were on the beasts and on the cattle. Your carriages were heavily loaded, A burden to the weary beast. 2 They stoop, they bow down together; They could not deliver the burden, But have themselves gone into captivity. 3 “Listen to Me, O house of Jacob, And all the remnant of the house of Israel, Who have been upheld by Me from birth, Who have been carried from the womb: 4 Even to your old age, I am He, And even to gray hairs I will carry you! I have made, and I will bear; Even I will carry, and will deliver you. 5 “To whom will you liken Me, and make Me equal And compare Me, that we should be alike? 6 They lavish gold out of the bag, And weigh silver on the scales; They hire a goldsmith, and he makes it a god; They prostrate themselves, yes, they worship. 7 They bear it on the shoulder, they carry it And set it in its place, and it stands; From its place it shall not move. Though one cries out to it, yet it cannot answer Nor save him out of his trouble. 8 “Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors. 9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. 12 “Listen to Me, you stubborn-hearted, Who are far from righteousness: 13 I bring My righteousness near, it shall not be far off; My salvation shall not linger.
Also interesting to note is how God operates His counsel.... He says He will "bring it to pass".God need not settle the future an eternity ago to bring His counsel to pass, He can bring things to pass because He is capable. He is able.
Closed.
I can accept that you are ignorant, but I cannot accept that God pre-planned you that way.
Yes, He will "bring it to pass." If He declared something to occur in man's future, He will indeed "bring it to pass."
I don't know if it matters if God settled the future eons ago or not (maybe it does... maybe it doesn't). The fact that He has providential control over everything is good enough for me.
Yup.
But even that can be contingent upon man's actions.
Jeremiah 18:7 “The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 “if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 “And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 “if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.
I think it matters. (certainly in the contest of this debate it matters)
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