ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Nathon Detroit

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Moreover, if God intervenes, such intervention overrules the open theist's free will, for it is seen to be 'coercive', and, the open theist would be forced to conclude that there is no moral responsibility for those that would be held accountable by God who have had their free will overridden by God's intervention.
There is absolutely, positively no logical reason to make that conclusion.

You brought up the flood earlier and that is a perfect example of God dealing with the majority of evil on the planet via His intervention yet not affecting man's will in the least. That case in and of itself defeats your conclusion.

God can, and does, intervene without removing man's will.

Think about this AMR.....

Think about Jonah. God wanted Jonah to act on His behalf. Jonah didn't want to act of God's behalf. God intervened and persuaded Jonah to act on His behalf which took a great deal of persuasion. If God was in the business of removing our will, He would have simply removed Jonah's will and had him act on His behalf and thereby skipping all the being swallowed by a fish stuff.

AMR, if men don't have a will (as your theology asserts), or if God removes our will at times (as you are toying with in these posts) why on earth didn't God simply ordain that Jonah do as He wanted Him to do in the first place?
 

Nathon Detroit

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Do you believe that God is bound by His word? I believe God could have before He chose to to give man a will, Not after. You cannot unring a bell!
I am really not sure if I understand what you just posted however.... Was God bound by His word when He said....

Joshua 3:7-10 And the LORD said to Joshua...

...and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites
 

Philetus

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Philetus, I would agree that His will must be perfect and I like that coupling of terms, but still find issue with labeling it perfectly free. He is not free to do evil or act contrary to His nature. He is more limited than man in terms of the range of action and choice by virtue of His perfection.

Thanks for the welcome. This is immensely enjoyable.

Now if I could only figure out how to do the quote thing and properly use the moving bits...the technical term for people with my level of technical expertise is, I believe, 'Neanderthal'.

If God is limited in anyway it is self imposed limitation. God is able. Open Theism doesn't limit God. It recognizes that God has limited His use of power in order to create and relate to the kind of world He in fact made which includes creatures with will that can be exercised contrary to His own. We tend to call that sin.

I believe God is Holy, just, loving, merciful, gracious ... because He chooses to be. We can trust Him because He is faithful and consistent both to Himself and His creation (we have been given no reason to doubt it). We call that faith.




Just give it your best shot. You will get the hang of all the buttons, and smilies soon enough. Don't worry ... if I didn't crash TOL you aren't likely to either. I still tend to mess things up a little bit from time to time ... but Knight if faithful. :crackup:
 

dale

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...
God can, and does, intervene without removing man's will.
I don't believe anyone is saying God removes man's will. But, molds and shapes it for His own purposes.

The damning part of free will isn't the word will but the word free.
 

Mystery

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AMR, if men don't have a will (as your theology asserts), or if God removes our will at times (as you are toying with in these posts) why on earth didn't God simply ordain that Jonah do as He wanted Him to do in the first place?
To teach the fish a lesson? :idunno:
 

elected4ever

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I am really not sure if I understand what you just posted however.... Was God bound by His word when He said....

Joshua 3:7-10 And the LORD said to Joshua...

...and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites
Joshua 3:7 ¶And the LORD said unto Joshua, This day will I begin to magnify thee in the sight of all Israel, that they may know that, as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee.
8 And thou shalt command the priests that bear the ark of the covenant, saying, When ye are come to the brink of the water of Jordan, ye shall stand still in Jordan.
9 And Joshua said unto the children of Israel, Come hither, and hear the words of the LORD your God.
10 And Joshua said, Hereby ye shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.

The promise was to Joshua for a specific purpose. Not to Israel. Did God honor His promise to Joshua?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Indeed! :thumb:

A little intervention, although not as coercive as much intervention, is still coercive.
You are chiming in when you are not the subject of the conversation. The conversation is between a classical theist and an open theist discussing the assurances of the eschaton.

The classical theist does not hold that God's providence is coercive, in fact we see a compatibility between sovereignty and personal responsibility. This is not the case for the open theist who holds to a libertarian view of free will, so anything that God does that impinges on that "free will" is seen as 'coercive' and removing personal responsibility.

In other words I am not writing generally, but specifically to the open theist on this matter.
 

rehcjam

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It isn't.

What makes you think that I think that it is? :dizzy:

For God to create the universe He would have to know how to. It is not known therefore it is not even a possibility(per Godrulz's response) therefore it is not possible. Of course for God all things are possible. It seems as though there is a contradiction in the statement that God does not know the future exhaustively because the future does not yet exist and yet He knows how to create an an unknown and non-existent universe. Is knowing the future exhaustively an impossibility for Him?

I agree.

He learns via experience (i.e., watching the future unfold). He doesn't learn (or need to learn) via being taught how to function or how to act etc.
Does that etc. also include how to create?

Why not? What is the difference?
I am still having a problem with understanding that God "learns" because that would mean that God comes from a place of ignorance and that He would have to have been instructed in some areas.
 

rehcjam

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This universe is actual ... the future of this universe is not yet actual. It must be 'learned' as it unfolds.

Before the universe is created it is not actual and the creation of the universe is still in the future. So how is it learned because it didn't unfold by itself?

The use of the term 'learning' is a little problematic for me as well and I'm an Open Theist. When we apply the term 'learning' to God it isn't that God has to go to school and learn the alphabet or algebra. Those 'things' are knowable and God has an exhaustive grasps of them.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the OV primarily because that is what the Scriptures teach, I am just trying to understand the philosophical side of it more, but it seems like you are using a bit of circular reasoning. How are "those things" (the alphabet and algebra) exhaustively knowable when they don't exist (they are not actual, they are in the future and they are not yet created)?

But the future history of the universe hasn't been written and still contains contingencies that are yet unknowable. What you will eat for breakfast tomorrow will be 'learned' and known when you in fact eat breakfast TOMORROW, not before. If you have the freedom to make that decision it cannot be known (even by God) before you make it.

God doesn't have to 'figure anything out.' He has complete understanding of actual events as they happen. The part of the future that is settled is the part that God has already determine HE will cause regardless of unfolding consistencies. That may be as everyday as the sun will 'rise' in the AM whether we stay up all night or sleep in. It may be as unique as the second coming whether we are ready or not. God will 'learn' who stayed up all night and slept in and who set their alarm clocks in the AM and will 'learn' who is ready for the second coming as they respond in faith to His grace.

Isn't God's creation a contingency? He did not have to create the universe, right?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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AMR writes: "...Moreover, if God intervenes, such intervention overrules the open theist's free will, for it is seen to be 'coercive', and, the open theist would be forced to conclude that there is no moral responsibility for those that would be held accountable by God who have had their free will overridden by God's intervention."
There is absolutely, positively no logical reason to make that conclusion.

You brought up the flood earlier and that is a perfect example of God dealing with the majority of evil on the planet via His intervention yet not affecting man's will in the least. That case in and of itself defeats your conclusion.
Er, no, Knight. A woman's choice to go visit her Mother on the day rains started falling was most certainly overridden by God's intervention. When the rivers rose and a family huddled on its roof, God's actions certainly overrode the family's choice to tend the family fields that day. The flood was not just some natural disaster of a corrupted earth, but a direct intervention by another agent, God, that most explicitly overrode these agents' free wills. Given the discussion and examples above, can you provide some alternative rationale for your assertion that God's intervention in the flood did not overrule anyone's free will (that is, free will as defined by open theists)?

God can, and does, intervene without removing man's will.
I have already pointed out above clear examples above of the opposing perspective where the free agents' choices were in no way voluntary choices. We need to remain on topic. I am not talking about sending prophets hither and yon (e.g., Jonah). The topic is the eschaton and the issue of God's intervention, if He intervenes at all, in the future course of human history, to ensure that His ultimate victory over evil is assured. The question before us is whether or not the open theist can truly maintain a belief of certainty that God's ultimate purposes will be fulfilled, in light of the issue of the actions of free agents rendering the future uncertain, given God's decision (according to open theism) to respect free agency, which thereby limits God's ability to infallibly know what He will do or when He will do it.
AMR, if men don't have a will (as your theology asserts), or if God removes our will at times (as you are toying with in these posts) why on earth didn't God simply ordain that Jonah do as He wanted Him to do in the first place?
Firstly, if you must insist on spelling out my theology, I ask that you do so objectively. I hold that we have a will to do what we are most inclined to do. I hold that there is no conflict between God's sovereignty and my responsibility before God for my actions. If you want to discuss the "sovereignty vs. personal responsibility" issue, that is best done in another thread or when we are finished with the topic at hand. Secondly, I believe that God indeed ordained that Jonah would do as God expected him to do. It was always God's intention. What God purposes, He always intends.

I also wrote: "If God is genuinely responsive to humans and to the course of history, and if God cannot infallibly know the future free decisions of man, it is in principle impossible for God to know infallibly what He will do in the future as well. In other words, God's knowledge of His own actions in the future is at best probabilistic. Thus, to my opening point of discussion about the eschaton, given the positions stated here, God's statement that He will ultimately triumph over evil is no absolute guarantee."

The inescapable conclusion is that God cannot logically be held to be "omni-competent" when His 'competence' is rendered fallible and probabilistic by the future free decisions of man. Do you have a response directed to these points that would support your belief that you are confident in the final outcomes of God's plans?
 
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godrulz

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Is knowing the future exhaustively an impossibility for Him? [/B]

Why not? What is the difference?
I am still having a problem with understanding that God "learns" because that would mean that God comes from a place of ignorance and that He would have to have been instructed in some areas.

Knowing reality as it is does not mean God learns intellectually. As the possible objects of knowledge become certain objects of knowledge, the way God knows them changes (possible to actual). As contingencies become actualities over time, the possible objects of knowledge increase exponentially. God knows all that is knowable. Before a contingent event is actualized in the present, there is nothing to know. Once it becomes a reality, God knows it, so the 'database' increases without God becoming 'smarter'. He is infinitely intelligent, but the databank of things to know is ever increasing. The 2010 Superbowl is not there to know. When and if it is played, then that is new possible knowledge that God becomes aware of. It does not make Him a smarter thinker because He learned something, but it retains His omniscience since He knows everything that is now knowable. 2005 is fully knowable and part of the knowledge of God and us. 2008 is not yet, so an omniscient God simply does not know it.

Knowing the future exhaustively is not impossible for God IF He creates a meticulously controlled, deterministic universe (which He did not). If He creates a universe with other moral agents and contingencies (which He did), then exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is a logical absurdity/contradiction/impossibility. This is a self- limitation on His knowledge due to the type of universe He sovereignly chose to actualize. This does not hinder Him in that He is omnicompetent and able to intervene when and if He wants to bring His purposes to pass (macro vs micromanages). This impossibility can be philosophically and biblically defended with modal logic (deals with contingencies/necessities/actualities/probabilities, etc), taking Scripture at face value, etc.
 

Yorzhik

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Knight, thank you for the clarity here.

I understand from what you state above why you also believe that there are times that what God thought would happen did not come about. This causes me to question what level of confidence you could have that God's promise to eliminate evil at the eschaton.

If God's anticipation of the future is not completely infallible, given that the free will of His creatures is always maintained, how is this kind of fallible anticipation enabling God to omni-competently respond to whatever free agents decide to do (how could a false anticipation help God deal with the future challenges of human history?).

If God is like a Grand Master chess player, yet human freedom is truly libertarian, how can God guarantee He will be able to respond to every move in the cosmic chess game that is made by free creatures? Yes, God's wisdom, skill, and resourcefulness is infinitely greater that the greatest Grand Master chess player, but what guarantee do you have that the novice (human) will not simply stumble by blind chance into the one in a million move that the Grand Master cannot respond to? As long as libertarian free will always exists this must be conceded to be always a possibility, even if the likelihood is small.

Open theists point to the flood as an example where God was grieved of that He had made man on the earth and that creation had miscarried. Open theists will maintain that for this Divine repentance to be real and authentic, the depth and pervasiveness of sin must not have been foreseen, and most certainly not planned by God. Hence, in responsiveness to unforeseen and and freely chosen human decisions, God undertakes a a new and different course of action (judges the world through the flood).

What is to prevent another future degeneration of humanity into sin that is even greater than that which precipitated the flood and thereby have God abandon His plans and destroy humanity completely in His judgment? I recognize that the open theist will point to the Noahic covenant as evidence that God at that time promised to not do so. Some open theists, but not yourself, will also argue that God can unilaterally intervene and override the free will of man to make sure this does not happen. But, can God really know what He will choose to do or not unilaterally in the future? If God is genuinely responsive to humans and to the course of history, and if God cannot infallibly know the future free decisions of man, it is in principle impossible for God to know infallibly what He will do in the future as well. In other words, God's knowledge of His own actions in the future is at best probabilistic. Thus, to my opening point of discussion about the eschaton, given the positions stated here, God's statement that He will ultimately triumph over evil is no absolute guarantee.

It would seem that for open theists to insist on a guaranteed final outcome in history, either God must be able to unilaterally intervene and override libertarian free will, or open theists must assume that God's ultimate plan to eliminate evil is not an absolute certainty. And, if God unilaterally intervenes, the question remains, given the free choices of man, how God can infallibly know when it would be the right time for Him to intervene. In effect God must make His decision based upon incomplete knowledge. Moreover, if God intervenes, such intervention overrules the open theist's free will, for it is seen to be 'coercive', and, the open theist would be forced to conclude that there is no moral responsibility for those that would be held accountable by God who have had their free will overridden by God's intervention.
Now I can see where you could come to the conclusion that if God removed a man's will in one instance, He would be obligated to remove a man's will in all cases.

So, even though God has the ability to remove man's will, I don't think He's ever done it.
 

Yorzhik

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Er, no, Knight. A woman's choice to go visit her Mother on the day rains started falling was most certainly overridden by God's intervention. When the rivers rose and a family huddled on its roof, God's actions certainly overrode the family's choice to tend the family fields that day. The flood was not just some natural disaster of a corrupted earth, but a direct intervention by another agent, God, that most explicitly overrode these agents' free wills.

Sigh. AMR; you don't know what it means to override someone's will. By this definition, you saying that if you grabbed your son's arm (when he was a small boy) and started using it to hit his own head, that it was your son's will that he have his head be hit. You could even say while you were doing it "stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself" just to prove the point.


I hold that we have a will to do what we are most inclined to do.
But in this thread you implied that man does not have a will. Although you never did explain yourself when I pointed it out to you.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Sigh. AMR; you don't know what it means to override someone's will. By this definition, you saying that if you grabbed your son's arm (when he was a small boy) and started using it to hit his own head, that it was your son's will that he have his head be hit. You could even say while you were doing it "stop hitting yourself, stop hitting yourself" just to prove the point.
Let's stay on topic. Again the issue is the eschaton. I have no time for straying into philosophy. Recast your comments in the context of the eschaton discussion, please.
But in this thread you implied that man does not have a will. Although you never did explain yourself when I pointed it out to you.
No, I did no such thing. You are failing to note the context of that thread, hence you are only using it as a pretext for your incorrect observation. I believe I discussed man's will in detail here, long before your recent philosophy scenario.
 
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