ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[patman]

Philetus

Philetus

I think all the logic lists (in this and other threads) have done is to prove that you can't improve on the biblical understanding of God by using the same old worn out proofs and systems that got us so far off track in the first place. The goal is not to define God but to know him; to unleash him form our preconceived, predetermined projections.

I like this. That's what I am trying to show. We should let the bible speak to us, not think something into the bible that clearly isn't there.

 

[patman]

RobE

RobE

The Bible says anything is possible for God.

Does it mean anything or just what you can rationalize?

Pals,

Rob

Rob, I agree with Godrulz on this.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=984608&postcount=1376

God could have done what you say by his power alone. But again, being powerful does not mean he will or should do anything. That's the point of the Settled Equation #3. Having power to do does not mean he does.

BUT ON THAT SAME NOTE

If anything is possible, is it possible that he doesn't know the entire future? Or do you deem that irrational? Or should I say "Does it mean anything or just what you can rationalize?"

In the sprit of Philetus 's point, I would rather see the verse that says "God knows the entire future" than your logical arguments that imply the same thing.

If it isn't there I wonder why we should put it in.

 

[godrulz]

God knows all that is knowable. He knows reality as it is. He correctly distinguishes possible, probable, certain/actual, necessary. The future is known as possible vs actual until it happens. The knowing of a nothing (future is not there yet) is a bald contradiction. He knows aspects of the future as settled (what He purposes to bring about by His ability). He knows other aspects as unsettled or uncertain. These two motifs can be found in Scripture. Open Theists affirm the closed future texts, while closed theists wrongly make the open texts figurative without warrant.

 

[patman]

God knows all that is knowable. He knows reality as it is. He correctly distinguishes possible, probable, certain/actual, necessary. The future is known as possible vs actual until it happens. The knowing of a nothing (future is not there yet) is a bald contradiction. He knows aspects of the future as settled (what He purposes to bring about by His ability). He knows other aspects as unsettled or uncertain. These two motifs can be found in Scripture. Open Theists affirm the closed future texts, while closed theists wrongly make the open texts figurative without warrant.

This says so much in so little. Good post!

 

[RobE]

BUT ON THAT SAME NOTE

If anything is possible, is it possible that he doesn't know the entire future? Or do you deem that irrational? Or should I say "Does it mean anything or just what you can rationalize?"

In the sprit of Philetus 's point, I would rather see the verse that says "God knows the entire future" than your logical arguments that imply the same thing.

If it isn't there I wonder why we should put it in.

I agree and appreciate most of Godrulz' posts as well.

I would like to see the verse that says "God doesn't know anything and is playing in the dark" to coincide with Open Theism's perception. At least Godrulz and you accept that some things are 'settled'. If they are 'settled' then someone must know something about the future. If something can be known, why not more than something.

If anything is possible, is it possible that he doesn't know the entire future? Or do you deem that irrational? Or should I say "Does it mean anything or just what you can rationalize?"

What besides knowing the future is impossible for God?

Excepting creating heavy rocks and creating red oranges; of course. Do you have a future. Is it a something? Is there no future as Godrulz submits? Or is it just impossible to know because mankind is too tricky?

Unlike many others, I'm willing to admit that many things are beyond my understanding.

Thanks,

Rob

 

[RobE]

To Godrulz

To Godrulz

God knows all that is knowable. He knows reality as it is. He correctly distinguishes possible, probable, certain/actual, necessary. The future is known as possible vs actual until it happens. The knowing of a nothing (future is not there yet) is a bald contradiction. He knows aspects of the future as settled (what He purposes to bring about by His ability). He knows other aspects as unsettled or uncertain. These two motifs can be found in Scripture. Open Theists affirm the closed future texts, while closed theists wrongly make the open texts figurative without warrant.

In your opinion is there any possibility that God knows the future as it stands right now?

Thanks Godrulz,

Rob

 

[godrulz]

In your opinion is there any possibility that God knows the future as it stands right now?

Thanks Godrulz,

Rob

Unless the future is like the fixed past, how could God 'see' it trillions of years in advance. An exhaustively known future would be a deterministic future. There would be no contingencies or uncertainties. Even postulating science fiction ideas like a 4th dimension or parallel universes is specious.

If we want to get more confused, throw in Molinism and its compromise of 'middle knowledge' (God knows all possibilities, but only actualizes one world). This is also a problematic view.

The issue is the nature of the future and whether it is closed/settled, open/unsettled, or a mix of both. As an Open Theist, I can affirm all your proof texts for a closed future and foreknowledge, but you cannot take at face value the verses that portray an open, uncertain future or God changing His mind. These verses must be anthropomorphized away. It may not be easy to grasp, but exhaustive foreknowledge of future free will contingencies is in the same category as God creating blue oranges (oranges that are the color blue and orange at the same time...I guess they would be purple?). The issue is not whether God is omniscient or not (HE IS!); the issue is whether the future is a possible object of certain knowledge before it happens. If freedom and contingencies are genuine, then some of the future, at least (what God does not bring about unilaterally by His ability/omnicompetence vs foreknowledge), is unsettled and correctly known as possible rather than actual in advance.

The potential future becomes the fixed past through the present (presentism vs eternalism). The future is not fixed like the past and is thus known differently.

The other key issue is whether God is an 'eternal now' timeless being or whether He experiences an endless duration of time (sequence/succession). The latter is more biblical and logical (discussed on other threads) and affects our understanding of omniscience, predestination, free will.

Another issue is whether sovereignty means manipulative, exhaustive, meticulous control (determinism...then I would agree that the future is fully knowable in advance), or whether it is responsive, providential, creative, etc.

Theology is the study and love of God. Let us keep searching out the matter, which is the glory of a king according to Scripture.

Who is God and what is He like (I will defend a personal, relational understanding over a Platonic/Augustinian philosophical model any day)? What is the nature of His creation and how does He interact with it?

 

[godrulz]

In your opinion is there any possibility that God knows the future as it stands right now?

Thanks Godrulz,

Rob

In your opinion, what is the mechanism (simple foreknowledge, determinism, etc.) by which the omniscient God knows who will win the 2010 Superbowl (freely played with vast contingencies before and during the game) before the world was even created?

Prophecy shows that there are aspects of the future that God knows. The mistake is to extrapolate this evidence to exhaustive foreknowledge despite a myriad of possible, uncertain, unknowable contingencies. Even some prophecies are conditional. What is your explanation for God truthfully pronouncing Hezekiah dead and then changing His mind and adding 15 years to his life in response to believing prayer?

 

[Philetus]

RobE: In your opinion is there any possibility that God knows the future as it stands right now?

Godrulz: He correctly distinguishes possible, probable, certain/actual, necessary.

I want to take a shot at this and see if I'm getting the OT POV. Any feedback on anyof the points based on Godrulz's points above are most welcome.

The future as it stands right now is in part certain/actual, because God makes some things in the future so. And God knows what he makes certain. He even makes some certain future things know ahead of time.

The future as it stands right now is in part uncertain/not-yet-actual because God has made room for real/actual expression of wills that are not always in accord with his own. Some aspects of the future can not be known simply because they are not. As it stands right now, at least part of, if not most of the future is open or still undecided. There is simply nothing to know.

As it stands right now, some knowledge of the future is more or less probable: It's a good bet for anyone that knows me and my morning habits that I won't be eating breakfast in the morning. (My bad.) I probably will not eat breakfast to morrow. But it is still possible. We will have to wait and see.

So, as it stands right now, there is a remote possibility that I will in fact eat breakfast in the morning. (Good wife.) But until me, God, my wife, the Holy Spirit, the devil, the dog and cheerios work it out, we (including God) won't know until the dust settles.

The future as it stands right now includes the knowable fact that the day of the Lord will come. Ask me how I know. Just don't ask me or Jesus the day or the hour.

As the future stands right now, God still has unscheduled time available to us. Make an appointment or just drop by. You will find Him far more flexible in many areas than you might have previously imagined.

Philetus

 

[godrulz]

You are on the right track. This dynamic view of God's creation and experiences is more exciting for everyone than a fatalistically fixed future. It takes less of a Sovereign to govern robots than it does to bring one's purposes and program to pass despite a myriad of contingencies and a myriad of significant others with genuine freedom. God is not the only factor, by His choice, in the universe. Prayer does change things. God is not responsible for evil Our choices are significant. Life is an adventure, not a scripted play. God sets the parameters, but He does not micromanage. Is this risk-view a threat? No. God is omnicompetent and resourceful. He can creatively work within any contingency without having to reduce us to sock puppets.

 

[Philetus]

God is omnicompetent and resourceful. I cannot begin to express how that word: 'omnicompetent has changed my thinking. I guess I have always been a closet Open Theist.

I was reading Exodus last night and suddenly saw it in the light of an open future.
It blew me away. Exciting doesn't even get close ... Holy Spirit fire is more like it, and I'm not "Pentecostal'

God: “We can get you there in 4 days, 40 days or take 40 years. It's your call. If you go the 40 year route, I’ll go with you. I won't sit here and wait like an unmoved, unmovable bump on a log. I'll be there .... short version: cloud, fire, shoes, daily bread ..... and involved.

Philetus

 

[Philetus]

Thanks Godrulz, for your investment in the truth.

 

[godrulz]

Thanks Godrulz, for your investment in the truth.

Omnicompetence (not my term, but I have adopted it) includes God's knowledge (knows the past and present exhaustively and the future as partially possible, probable, or certain), power, ability, wisdom, love, resourcefulness, creativity, etc. It contrasts with power as meticulous control or brute force, not worthy of our relational God.

Have you read "God of the Possible" by Dr. Gregory Boyd? It is a readable, simple introduction to this topic and includes biblical examples of openness passages and an explanation for common closed view proof texts.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/080106290X/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-3515985-1955103#reader-link

(click next page for contents)

John Sanders "The God who risks" contrasts the risk vs no-risk model of God's providence and sovereignty. I am just finishing it and have appreciated his insights on God's ways as revealed in the historical narratives of Scripture.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0830815015/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-3515985-1955103#reader-link

 

[patman]

RobE

RobE

I would like to see the verse that says "God doesn't know anything and is playing in the dark" to coincide with Open Theism's perception.

It is sad after as long as you and I have spoken, that is the most you are getting out of what I believe, and you still don't get it. I don't know how many times I said he has a plan, he is going by it, that he has power to keep things in control as he sees fit. I feel no obligation to give you proof of such a verse as Open Theist do not believe such.

You on the other hand are in a unique position. The thousands of pages of the Bible with thousands of verses. So many chances to say "God knows the entire future." Where does it say it, RobE? If you are so "Unlike many others, you are willing to admit that many things are beyond your understanding," why do you assume such a verse is in there? That's bold.

Open Theist give God the honor of not adding to his word and not proclaiming things that he isn't proclaiming about himself. So I demand the proof. I demand it because I know it isn't there.

At least Godrulz and you accept that some things are 'settled'. If they are 'settled' then someone must know something about the future. If something can be known, why not more than something.

Exactly, he knows much aboout the future, but he never said he knows all of it, so that begs the question "why add something more?"

What besides knowing the future is impossible for God?

Excepting creating heavy rocks and creating red oranges; of course. Do you have a future. Is it a something? Is there no future as Godrulz submits? Or is it just impossible to know because mankind is too tricky?

Godrulz is trying to show you that God does know everything, but the future is not a thing to be known.

I tired a stab at this one a long time ago, do you remember my answer? That our words like future and past are simply references to when something happens.

Most importantly, you say God can't create a rock to heavy that he can't lift it. You are right, that is what is called a paradox. You also identify that God can't make a red orange an I would assume you recognize the impossibility of creating round squares. All Paradoxes.

I would submit to you that seeing everything that is in the future is a paradox as well, especially when you are a loving creator. But I have said that to you before. Didn't catch on then either.... sigh.

But for some reason, it is wrong for OTs to identify paradoxes and it is ok for you to? You assume you know what they are just like I did? And make the claim that you are better than us OT by saying that you are "Unlike many others, you are willing to admit that many things are beyond your understanding."

I don't know, Rob. The only thing I can say at this point is that we OTs are not willing to add to the word like you are, thus being humble enough to let the words teach us. Without proof of such a verse as I asked, I cannot say the same of you.

 

[patman]

Philetus

Philetus

God is omnicompetent and resourceful. I cannot begin to express how that word: 'omnicompetent has changed my thinking. I guess I have always been a closet Open Theist.

I was reading Exodus last night and suddenly saw it in the light of an open future.
It blew me away. Exciting doesn't even get close ... Holy Spirit fire is more like it, and I'm not "Pentecostal'

God: “We can get you there in 4 days, 40 days or take 40 years. It's your call. If you go the 40 year route, I’ll go with you. I won't sit here and wait like an unmoved, unmovable bump on a log. I'll be there .... short version: cloud, fire, shoes, daily bread ..... and involved.

Philetus

Praise God, Philetus. That feeling of understanding God in such a light is simply unlike any other. I have been an Open Theist for 6 years now, and to this day I get that peace and fire in me that goes with seeing God.

For years before, when I was of the "settled theistic" mind set, nothing made complete since to me. So many unanswerable questions, the weight of destiny on my back was to great for me, and I couldn't rationalize how that was possible.

I purposefully did things wrong and ran from good things to show myself I truly was free, and then went cowering at night sorry for what I did and still feeling trapped as though it was all planned by God. I could not see God eye to eye.

But now, Thanks be to his word and others showing me the light, I am free and understand the bible like never before. If only I started my christian walk this way, where would I be today? I am sorry for lost years but glad I get the freedom to make up for it, and have the choice to do more, as our future is open, under God who is with us no matter what the future holds.

I may be called an Open Theist, but I don't care. The wonderful freedom in reading the Bible and simply taking it in as it reads is worth being called worst. The times I sit there and have more meaningful praise for Him because I truly know he is with me, and loves me as a man, not a puppet.

Thanks for your input on here, It is refreshing to see others experience a similar "revelation" that comes from simply taking the bible in and not reading concepts in it.

 

[Bob Hill]

Godrulz,

Great posts!! I also believe the Bible tells us that God is all knowing, but does not know the future events for sure that He does not destine. In other words, God knows everything that is possible to know. That’s what it says in 1 Jo 3:20: “For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.”

In agreement with you, if man can make any choices not totally predestined by God, then, those future free acts would be unknowable.

The reason for our understanding of God’s knowledge of future events is clear to us because the Bible never says, God knows the future. But it does show that our almighty God does not know some of the future actions of man.

Here are some passages that show God doesn’t know for sure what the future actions of man will be in all cases: Gen 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

God was not absolutely sure that Israel would be stalwart enough to go by way of the Philistines’ territory when they left Egypt. Ex 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, “Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.”

God thought it was possible for Israel to turn from their evil way when He had Jeremiah prophesy. Jer 26:1-3 In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, this word came from the LORD, saying, 2 “Thus says the LORD: ‘Stand in the court of the Lord’s house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lord’s house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word. 3 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.’” Similar statements were made in Jer 36:3 “It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the adversities which I purpose to bring upon them, that everyone may turn from his evil way, that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.”

I think the most interesting one is Jer 3:6,7 The LORD said also to me in the days of Josiah the king: “Have you seen what backsliding Israel has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there played the harlot. 7 “And I said, after she had done all these things, ‘She will return to Me’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

God expected Israel to respond differently to His love. But they didn’t.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

It is amazing how many times God almighty repents in the Old Testament.

In Isa 5:1-4, God shows that man doesn’t respond to our wonderful God even when He does everything that He can do to or for a free will being: Now let me sing to my Well-beloved a song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard: My Well-beloved has a vineyard on a very fruitful hill. 2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones, and planted it with the choicest vine. He built a tower in its midst, and also made a winepress in it; So He expected it to bring forth good grapes, but it brought forth wild grapes. 3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard. 4 What more could have been done to My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes, Did it bring forth wild grapes?

Sometimes, God changes His mind, or repents, because of man’s actions. The Hebrew word, repent, is used of Job when he repented before the Lord. When Job was talking to God, he said in Job 42:5-6: “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent [Heb. na gham’] in dust and ashes.”

This same word is used of God repeatedly. Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD repented [Heb. na gham’] that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I repent [Heb. na gham’] that I have made them.”

One of the most interesting OT passages is the one where God repents twice and doesn’t repent once. 1 Sa 15:11,29,35 “I [repent [Heb. na gham’] that I have set up Saul as king, for he has turned back from following Me, and has not performed My commandments.” And it grieved Samuel, and he cried out to the LORD all night. 29 “And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent [Heb. na gham’]. For He is not a man, that He should repent.” 35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD repented [Heb. na gham’] that He had made Saul king over Israel.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

My favorite passage on God’s ability to repent is found in Jeremiah 18. God’s principles for repenting are laid out very clearly.

Jer 18:1-10: The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter;

Was it marred because God, the potter, was inept? Of course not. It was the clay, the house of Israel, that was disobedient.

so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent [Heb. na gham’] of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent [Heb. na gham’] concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.”

It seems that God was almost always willing to repent when Israel repented.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

We have such a wonderful God. He loves and punishes. But even when He punishes, He is willing to repent if man does. However, Israel was such a rebellious nation that our wonderful God even got tired of repenting.

The LORD repented so many times in the OT that He said in Jer 15:6, “You have forsaken Me,” says the LORD, “You have gone backward. Therefore I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am weary of repenting [Heb. na gham’]!”

Sometimes, God changes His mind in response to prayer. Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented [Heb. na gham’] from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

God responded to Moses the interceder.

According to 1 Ti 2:4, God “desires [Greek thelei - wills] all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” Yet all men are not saved.

Even Christians reject the will of God. Everyone of us have. 1 Th 4:3-7 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.

Lk 7:30 “But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.” Millions have rejected God’s counsel for them since that time.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[godrulz]

Thank you for highlighting more Scriptural support for the dynamic, relational, responsive, creative ways of God (as opposed to the static, changeless- in- every -way picture of God that was influenced by Platonic philosophy).