ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[RobE]

7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’”.

Again God shows you He has the ability to foresee the future in intricate detail.

Was God lessened when Jesus was incarnate? If not, then what's the point? Unless you're saying that God incarnating changed His character?

Seriously,
Rob

 

[RobE]

Jesus was saying that it is the Father who determines when the Kingdom will be set up. His comment does not have to mean that the specific day and hour had already been determined but only that when it is determined it will be determined by the Father and not by anyone else.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I appreciate the fact that you recognize the weakness in this explanation by adding 'does not have to mean'.

However, we both know that Jesus could have said 'the Father will determine', 'It is not yet determined', etc....

But Jesus did not. He specifically says the day and hour. Why?

Rob

 

[Clete]

7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’”.

Again God shows you He has the ability to foresee the future in intricate detail.

God shows His ability to plan and to bring His what He wills to pass, nothing more. Jesus did not have to see the future to make this statement any more than you have to see the future to plan a trip to the grocery store.

Was God lessened when Jesus was incarnate? If not, then what's the point? Unless you're saying that God incarnating changed His character?

Seriously,
Rob

You asked for me to give you examples where God changed that did not involve emotions or simple changes of mind. I have given you examples of God changing His very mode of existence. You don't get any more substantive of a change than these that I have listed. There is simply no sense in which the term immutable can be accurately applied to God except in the narrowest of senses which applies only to His righteous character and even then it is somewhat of an overstatment because immutability doesn't mean that something does not change but that something cannot change.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

I appreciate the fact that you recognize the weakness in this explanation by adding 'does not have to mean'.

Do not put words in my mouth! I meant only that the way you interpret the comment is not necessarily correct.

However, we both know that Jesus could have said 'the Father will determine', 'It is not yet determined', etc....

But Jesus did not. He specifically says the day and hour. Why?

Rob

Because He wanted to. It makes the point nicely that it wasn't up to Him when the Kingdom would be established. Anything beyond that removes the comment from its context and is speculation.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Bob Hill]

The fall was anticipated, but it wasn't planned. If it was planned, then Adam and Eve would not have been responsible for what they did. But the were responsible - guilty. Then, they needed redemption.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

Clete,

I really appreciate your posts.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Clete]

Clete,

I really appreciate your posts.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Well you just made my day! Thanks and God bless you!

 

[Frank Ernest]

Jesus was saying that it is the Father who determines when the Kingdom will be set up. His comment does not have to mean that the specific day and hour had already been determined but only that when it is determined it will be determined by the Father and not by anyone else.

Resting in Him,
Clete

:thumb:

 

[RobE]

Do not put words in my mouth! I meant only that the way you interpret the comment is not necessarily correct.

Interpret?

Matthew 24:36

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."​

Because He wanted to. It makes the point nicely that it wasn't up to Him when the Kingdom would be established. Anything beyond that removes the comment from its context and is speculation.

I take it at face value. Jesus says, "No one knows about that day or hour,......only the Father."

The Father knows the day and hour

Which interpretation matches what Jesus said?

Try Again,
Rob

I guess if you refuse to believe Him, I shouldn't expect you to believe me.

 

[RobE]

Clete. Please clarify and interpret since I apparently can't.

Clete. Please clarify and interpret since I apparently can't.

Matt 6:70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)​

Rob's interpretation:

Jesus foreknew that one of the twelve would betray Him.


Clete's interpretation??????????


Again Good Luck,

Rob

 

[RobE]

]The fall was anticipated[/B], but it wasn't planned. If it was planned, then Adam and Eve would not have been responsible for what they did. But the were responsible - guilty. Then, they needed redemption.

Bob Hill

How can you anticipate without predicting(foretelling)?

Rob M.

 

[Clete]

Matt 6:70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)​

Rob's interpretation:

Jesus foreknew that one of the twelve would betray Him.


Clete's interpretation??????????


Again Good Luck,

Rob

Jesus knew because He knew those twelve whom He called. He did not need to see the future in order to know that one of them was not a sincere disciple. However, Judas could have repented and it wouldn't have caused Jesus or anyone else any problems. In fact, Jesus would have been elated as He is when anyone repents.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Interpret?

Matthew 24:36

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."​

I take it at face value. Jesus says, "No one knows about that day or hour,......only the Father."



Which interpretation matches what Jesus said?

Try Again,
Rob

I guess if you refuse to believe Him, I shouldn't expect you to believe me.

If you want to have a substantive discussion about these important issues I am willing to continue but I will no longer tolerate the snide remarks. I am not stupid and I will not tolerate being treated as such. And there is not one syllable of what Jesus said that I do not believe and that I wouldn’t die before denying.
Now, if you want to try to actually understand my position. Fine; if not, go away, or I will. You pick.

My interpretation matches just fine with what Jesus said. The comment does not have to mean that God presently knew when Jesus made this comment or even that He knows now when the specific calendar day and hour is (although I admit that it obviously could be read that way).

To give an example of how Jesus' specific statement could apply literally without God knowing the precise calendar day and hour, just think of your own life and how you live it. Let's say for example that you tell your child that when he becomes a man that you are going to give him your pocket watch which you received from your father when you became a man. Some years later, your son turns thirteen and at some point that day comes to his mother and asks whether dad was going to give him the watch today. His mother responds, "It is not for me, nor your brothers or sisters to know the day or the hour, but only your fatheer." But you as his father, do not have a specific date and time in mind but simply an event; some significant event that when it happens you have decided that on that day and at that hour the watch will be given as promised.

Doesn't that make perfect sense? It agrees completely with the text of Scripture and is in complete keeping with the context as well.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[RobE]

Reply to Clete

Reply to Clete

Jesus knew because He knew those twelve whom He called. He did not need to see the future in order to know that one of them was not a sincere disciple. However, Judas could have repented and it wouldn't have caused Jesus or anyone else any problems. In fact, Jesus would have been elated as He is when anyone repents.

Matt 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.​

Actually Judas did repent. Yet Judas was still lost. How? And how could Jesus have known this in advance. Remember, the first scripture.....

Matt 6:70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)​

And again Jesus foretold the fate of Judas:

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.​

Did God make Judas destroy hiself or did God foresee Judas destroying himself? How else could the scripture be interpreted? Either God foresaw it happening or made it happen according to Open Theism's 'made it happen' argument.

_________________

To give an example of how Jesus' specific statement could apply literally without God knowing the precise calendar day and hour, just think of your own life and how you live it. Let's say for example that you tell your child that when he becomes a man that you are going to give him your pocket watch which you received from your father when you became a man. Some years later, your son turns thirteen and at some point that day comes to his mother and asks whether dad was going to give him the watch today. His mother responds, "It is not for me, nor your brothers or sisters to know the day or the hour, but only your fatheer." But you as his father, do not have a specific date and time in mind but simply an event; some significant event that when it happens you have decided that on that day and at that hour the watch will be given as promised.

Without foreknowledge that the 'significant event' will happen as a certainty this interpretation doesn't work, does it? Simply stated, that event would have to be pre-determined as an occurance in a Universe where pre-determination is logically impossible. According to Enyart only God can change the future, not man.

Can you justify your interpretation any other way(a way that doesn't require foreknowledge)?

Sorry if I offended you with my earlier post. I am taking your opinions seriously.

Sincerely,

Rob Mauldin

 

[elected4ever]

All Open theist have is woulda , coulda and shoulda. To heck with the actual testimony of scripture.

 

[godrulz]

How can you anticipate without predicting(foretelling)?

Rob M.

God knew the possibility of the Fall. This is a prediction based on probabilty. It is not the same thing as knowing as a certainty the actuality of the Fall from eternity past.

 

[godrulz]

Matt 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

4Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.​

Actually Judas did repent. Yet Judas was still lost. How? And how could Jesus have known this in advance. Remember, the first scripture.....

Matt 6:70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)​

And again Jesus foretold the fate of Judas:

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.​

Did God make Judas destroy hiself or did God foresee Judas destroying himself? How else could the scripture be interpreted? Either God foresaw it happening or made it happen according to Open Theism's 'made it happen' argument.

Sorry if I offended you with my earlier post. I am taking your opinions seriously.

Sincerely,

Rob Mauldin

There is a difference between remorse and repentance. Acts calls Judas a 'son of perdition/hell'. He once followed Christ, but died outside His grace. He was not a pawn or puppet in God's plan. He had freedom to betray or not betray Christ. Judas, not God, is responsible for what he did.

 

[godrulz]

All Open theist have is woulda , coulda and shoulda. To heck with the actual testimony of scripture.

Scripture reveals God knowing possible things as possible, probable things as probable, actual/certain things as actual, necessary things as necessary. God knows reality as it is. It does not dishonor Him to correctly know the future as partly settled and partly unsettled. This is the type of creation He sovereignly chose. He is omnicompetent, responsive, providential. He is not a meticulous control freak.

 

[Frank Ernest]

Scripture reveals God knowing possible things as possible, probable things as probable, actual/certain things as actual, necessary things as necessary. God knows reality as it is. It does not dishonor Him to correctly know the future as partly settled and partly unsettled. This is the type of creation He sovereignly chose. He is omnicompetent, responsive, providential. He is not a meticulous control freak.

Ok. Got it! :thumb:

 

[elected4ever]

Ok. Got it! :thumb:

You had rather accept the hypothetical than the actual? :down: