ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[godrulz]

Where there is no law, sin is not imputed and for the Christian the law has been done away with and thus a Christian cannot sin.

Is this what you are getting at when you say Christians cannot sin, or are you saying that if a so called Christian ever does anything to hurt someone else that they are not really a Christian?

Resting in Him,
Clete

The law said that adultery is sin. When was this principle rescinded?

When a Christian pastor commits adultery, what do you call it? A mistake? Call it what the Bible calls it (in both covenants). Sin is not a thing that is imputed. It is a wrong moral choice or lawlessness. The penalty of sin may not be imputed if a substitute for the penalty is given (the cross) and the guilty person comes in repentant faith with a willingness to love and obey again.

Jesus summed up the Decalogue as loving God supremely and others equal to ourselves. Falling short of this mark, in both covenants, can be called sin. I John must be exegeted carefully (as well as Pauline teaching on the nature of sin).

A Christian can sin. There is provision if a Christian sins (I Jn. 1:9). If the choice of adultery is sin one day before being born again, do you really think the semantics change one day after being born again if the new believer lapses into old issues of the flesh?

Sin is not a substance. This is the reason 'original sin' is Augustinian, not biblical. Volition/choice are never divorced from sin. This is why we are responsible/accountable.

Sozo-LH will appreciate your view, but it goes against most credible harmartiology (study of doctrine of sin) and soteriology (salvation).

 

[godrulz]

Romans 7:4 *Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 *For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 *But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

When we first sinned we, as Paul, were executed by the law. and became dead to God. (separated from God) and are no longer subject to the law of God.We were then held by the captivity of our execution by the law until final judgment which is to come. All unsaved persons are prisoners and are effectively dead to God and cannot please God. That is reason # 1

Reason # 2 is that we have been born in the spirit by the seed of God and given life from God by his seed.

John 3:3 *Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 *Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 *That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 *Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
1 John 3:9 *Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 *In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
1 John 4:17 *¶Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 *There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 *We love him, because he first loved us.

Let me assure you of something Clete. Even with all our disagreements I prefer you over any regenerated person. I prefer the company of the brethren.

Mid-Acts only accepts Pauline teaching for the modern church. This is why it is unbalanced. Johannine theology has a different emphasis, but it is not diametrically opposed to Pauline thought.

 

[Clete]

The law said that adultery is sin. When was this principle rescinded?

When a Christian pastor commits adultery, what do you call it? A mistake? Call it what the Bible calls it (in both covenants). Sin is not a thing that is imputed. It is a wrong moral choice or lawlessness. The penalty of sin may not be imputed if a substitute for the penalty is given (the cross) and the guilty person comes in repentant faith with a willingness to love and obey again.

Jesus summed up the Decalogue as loving God supremely and others equal to ourselves. Falling short of this mark, in both covenants, can be called sin. I John must be exegeted carefully (as well as Pauline teaching on the nature of sin).

A Christian can sin. There is provision if a Christian sins (I Jn. 1:9). If the choice of adultery is sin one day before being born again, do you really think the semantics change one day after being born again if the new believer lapses into old issues of the flesh?

Sin is not a substance. This is the reason 'original sin' is Augustinian, not biblical. Volition/choice are never divorced from sin. This is why we are responsible/accountable.

Sozo-LH will appreciate your view, but it goes against most credible harmartiology (study of doctrine of sin) and soteriology (salvation).

I never said it was my view, I simply asked a question.

While I do not disagree with Sozo's position on the issue, that's only because I understand his definition of the word sin, which is quite different than what most people think sin means. Sozo, IMHO, would do well to articulate his position in the vernacular of his intended audience rather then simply stating his position and leaving for them to figure it out on their own.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[RobE]

Reply to Lighthouse and Clete

Reply to Lighthouse and Clete

Because He loved them whether they rejected Him or not.

So what? That still doesn't answer why He wasted His time. For Him to die for them would have been futile, and God is not futile.

Here's my answer to God's futility:

Christ paid the price for all sin when He died on the cross. Those who reject Him still go to Hell. God is still just. Figure it out.

I then tried to answer your question further by telling you why God would make salvation available when He knew not all would avail themselves.....

Maybe, someone who was just, would give an equal opportunity to all.

To which you replied.....

A just man would not give the opportunity to those whom he knew would not accept it. That's asinine. And God's not asinine.

Justice for all is not necessary for a judge to be good? So, in your opinion, Jesus would not die for those who would not avail themselves? Are you sure you believe this?

You already agreed that Jesus died for all. You already agreed Jesus knew some would not avail themselves of His sacrifice? What difference would this answer make whether Jesus knew some would not avail themselves in general or specifically which ones would not?


______________________________________

Originally Posted by RobE

So if God were to accurately predict(prophecy) the future then is that a logical absurdity? For instance, if God were to know that the rock would fall when you dropped it or you would sin if you lived?

God is not stupid. Even we know that rocks fall if we drop them. Why wouldn't God know this? Same goes for us sinning. We know we will, how could God not know we will?

Yet Open Theism claims that Adam might not sin; even though you would find Adam not sinning, eventually, a logical impossibility because of Adam's free will. See, it cuts both ways and you can't even see it. For Adam to be 'free' then sin would be in His future. Anyone who can make choices eventually makes a bad one unless He can foresee(accurately predict) the outcomes.

How can God know something that does not exist?

Where does the future exist for God to see it? How can He know something that is simply unknowable? What shirt I will wear tomorrow is not necessarily unknowable, because there are only a limited amount of shirts in my wardrobe. However, which specific one I will choose is unknowable, because I haven't chosen to wear it yet.

God is not stupid. Even we know that rocks fall if we drop them. Why wouldn't God know this? Same goes for us sinning. We know we will, how could God not know we will?

My question.........God is not stupid so why would God know we would sin; even though, He can't know something which is unknowable? Antinomy, Clete?

Thanks for Listening,

Rob

 

[RobE]

I finally got it, I think?

I finally got it, I think?

If the future is settled, we are not free (an open future is a necessary condition for freedom).

According to who?

Therefore if God knows the future we are, by logical necessity, not free.

What's your definition of freedom?

If we are not free, morality is meaningless because love and all other forms of morality must, by definition, be a freely chosen act of the will. (Volition is a necessary condition for morality.)

Casual determinism allows for you to choose.

If morality is meaningless then all of Christianity is meaningless because it is at its core about good and evil (Christianity=Morality).

Christianity=Morality. If Christianity is meaningless then all of Christianity is meaningless.
WHAT? This is your proof?

Christianity is not meaningless, therefore morality is not meaningless; therefore we must necessarily have volition; therefore the future must necessarily be open; therefore God must necessarily not know the future.

Where is the flaw in my logic?

Logic?

I finally realized the problem here. You think that just because you have a 'free' choice that you determine your own outcomes. So you can decide A and B will happen. It's all you. God being your loving Father allows you to do A and let B happen so you'll be free. So you're free to do whatever you want because if you can't then you're not really free. So you can save yourself or condemn yourself without Him? God can't see your heart so He can't really tell what you will do next? It's all up to you. What do you think will happen if it's truly all up to you and your 'freedom'?

I thank God I'm not on my own. What happens in your heart is yours. What happens in His creation is His. Open Theism makes you the creator instead of the creation. Your freewill ends with you. At judgement will He judge your heart or how you enjoyed your freedom? Christianity is about curbing your free will and aligning yourself with Him. It's about turning over to Him exactly the gift He gave you.

Choices? Freedom? Freedom of Choice?

To do what?

YOUR LOGICAL FLAW: You make choices and He determines outcomes. Did you forget?

Is this what I've been missing?

Rob

 

[elected4ever]

Can someone with an open view answer this Question

Can someone with an open view answer this Question

If God did not know that Adam would sin then why was Christ crucified from the foundation of the world? The foundation of the world was before man was even made.

 

[Clete]

According to who?

It is in accordance with the definitions of the terms "settled" and "free(dom)"
The two are mutually exclusive, by definition, which I made clear in the post.

What's your definition of freedom?

The technical definition is...

"Necessarily, for any human agent S, action A and time t, if S performs A freely at t, then the history of the world prior to t, the laws of nature, and the actions of any other agent (including God) prior to and at t are jointly compatible with S's refraining from performing A freely."

Thomas P. Flint, "Two Accounts of Providence," in Divine and Human Action, ed. T. V. Morris [Ithaca, N.Y. Cornel University Press, 1988], p. 175​

The not so technical but equally valid definition is...

The ability to do or to do otherwise.​

Casual determinism allows for you to choose.

But not freely! Choice, in the context of causality, is basically meaningless because your "choice" is nothing but simply the next effect/cause in the causal chain. One cause or group of causes has the effect of your action, which you are calling a choice but it really isn't one because there was no real alternative action that was compatible with the given set of particular circumstances (see the more technical definition).

Christianity=Morality. If Christianity is meaningless then all of Christianity is meaningless.
WHAT? This is your proof?

You do have to at least try to stay on the same page that I am on and stop reacting to single phrases or sentences outside of the context in which they were writen. The statement was that if morality is meaningless so is Christianity and in that context it is clear what is meant by saying that Christianity=morality.
And Christianity does equal morality and vise versa! Any moral code other than the Christian moral code is no moral code at all! All codes of conduct outside of that which is in agreement with Christianity is, BY DEFINITION, immoral.
Christianity is all about morality, as you are well aware. How much mileage did you really expect to get from calling this phrase into question anyway? Do you disagree that the God of the Christian faith is the very standard by which all things moral is based and defined? What exactly was your hope in calling this into question? I really do want to know because this makes me wonder whether you spent more than 30 seconds thinking this through. If you don't want to take this discussion seriously then just drop it and stop wasting my time.

Logic?

Yes logic. The logic I've presented is, as far as I can see, iron clad and inescapable. If God knows the future then I am going to do what He knows I'm going to do whether I want to or not. In fact, I will want to do what He knows I will want to do and there's nothing that I could or would do about it regardless of what else ever happens. That makes everything the Christian faith is about entirely meaningless. It makes repentance meaningless, it makes love meaningless, it makes justice meaningless, everything is totally and completely meaningless.

I finally realized the problem here.

No you don't.

You think that just because you have a 'free' choice that you determine your own outcomes.

That's the meaning of free will. If it isn't me doing the determining of my actions then it isn't me that is responsible for those actions and therefore saying that I love someone doesn't mean anything because I couldn't have not loved them because something outside of my control caused me to do as I did or kept me from doing otherwise.

So you can decide A and B will happen. It's all you. God being your loving Father allows you to do A and let B happen so you'll be free. So you're free to do whatever you want because if you can't then you're not really free.

There are lots of things that I cannot do but the point is that I am not responsible for that which is outside of my control. It is not necessary, nor have I ever maintained that one be able to do absolutely anything they want to do but rather that I simply have a genuine choice and the ability to avoid wrong doing. (1 Corinthians 10:13)

So you can save yourself or condemn yourself without Him?

I never said any such thing. Although it is our sin which condemns us and we are not compelled to place our faith in Christ.

God can't see your heart so He can't really tell what you will do next? It's all up to you.

God can predict and do so with a very high degree of certainty but that is not the same as knowing for certain. (Gen. 22:12)

What do you think will happen if it's truly all up to you and your 'freedom'?

This question is nonsense! What do you mean by "if it's truly all up to me and my freedom"? If what's all up to me? Do you think I'm suggesting that I'm the one who came up with the plan of salvation; that I went to God and told Him how He was going to save people and under what circumstances people would be qualified to receive His grace? Is that what you think? If so, you're delusional.

I thank God I'm not on my own. What happens in your heart is yours.

Not if you don't have a free will it isn't yours. It's the property of someone or something else which either predestined or otherwise caused your every thought, feeling and deed.

What happens in His creation is His. Open Theism makes you the creator instead of the creation.

How so? This is stupid. You've lost all control over your emotions Rob. You need to settle down and get a grip. Open Theism simply acknowledges that we are truly responsible for our actions because they are genuinely our actions in that we really did choose to do them ourselves.

Your freewill ends with you. At judgment will He judge your heart or how you enjoyed your freedom?

There is no difference. Without freedom the condition of my heart (which is a matter of morality) is meaningless.

Christianity is about curbing your free will and aligning yourself with Him. It's about turning over to Him exactly the gift He gave you.

Must one choose to curb that free will and align oneself with Him? Do you see how you've begged the question here Rob?

Curbing and aligning are verbs; they imply choices that are made. How are those choices made except by the will? And if that will is not free then how is there any meaning to your having curbed and aligned it with God? There isn't! That's the whole point!

Choices? Freedom? Freedom of Choice?

To do what?

To do good or to do otherwise. That's what.

YOUR LOGICAL FLAW: You make choices and He determines outcomes. Did you forget?

Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.​

If you are going to quote Scripture you might do God the favor of doing so accurately, assuming of course that you have the choice.

This verse is not teaching that men cannot do other than what the Lord's desires is for them to do. If it did, the Bible would be self-contradictory, first of all (Luke 7:30), and secondly God would be unjust to punish any such evil "steps" which He himself directed in such a way as to make it impossible to avoid.

By the way, you don't have a great deal of history with me and so I'll take the opportunity to just tell you that I am not afraid of what the Bible says. There is no verse that you are going to come up with that is going to trip me up or cause me the slightest bit of problem or that will hardly count as a problem text for that matter. If you want to take this philosophical (i.e. logical) conversation to the next level and turn it into a purely Biblical one, I invite you to do so.

Is this what I've been missing?

As of right now, I can't even tell if you understand the form of the argument. I sincerely hope that this post has helped in that regard.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[drbrumley]

If God did not know that Adam would sin then why was Christ crucified from the foundation of the world? The foundation of the world was before man was even made.

God had a plan of redemption in case man did sin. That’s what it shows us in 1 Pe 1:20: “He indeed was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”

 

[elected4ever]

God had a plan of redemption in case man did sin. That’s what it shows us in 1 Pe 1:20: “He indeed was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.”

Then open theism is just the law of probability. Your god is a god of maybe. Maybe he will or maybe he wont. Depends on how he feels that day.

 

[Frank Ernest]

Then open theism is just the law of probability. Your god is a god of maybe. Maybe he will or maybe he wont. Depends on how he feels that day.

:darwinsm: And your god wears a union label?

 

[elected4ever]

:darwinsm: And your god wears a union label?

What kind of a remark is that? You run out of anything pertinent to say and now you attack God personally? :kookoo:

 

[Clete]

Then open theism is just the law of probability. Your god is a god of maybe. Maybe he will or maybe he wont. Depends on how he feels that day.

What God does He does according to His righeous character not some capricous whim or arbitrary flight of emotion.

I don't understand why people have such a hard time understanding this. How does it follow that God is somehow diminished in character or power if every event doesn't transpire by His own hand? Why must God be in absolute maticulous control of every event that happens to remain a holy, righteous, and perfect God? It makes no sense!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[RobE]

The not so technical but equally valid definition is...

The ability to do or to do otherwise.​

No one has said you don't have the ability to do or to do otherwise. Just that God foresaw that you wouldn't choose to do otherwise. Your own ability has nothing to do with what God has accurately predicted.

Casual determinism allows for you to choose.

But not freely! Choice, in the context of causality, is basically meaningless because your "choice" is nothing but simply the next effect/cause in the causal chain. One cause or group of causes has the effect of your action, which you are calling a choice but it really isn't one because there was no real alternative action that was compatible with the given set of particular circumstances (see the more technical definition).

An influenced choice is still a choice when the ability to do or to do otherwise exists by your own definition of freedom.

There are lots of things that I cannot do but the point is that I am not responsible for that which is outside of my control. It is not necessary, nor have I ever maintained that one be able to do absolutely anything they want to do but rather that I simply have a genuine choice and the ability to avoid wrong doing. (1 Corinthians 10:13)

13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

I find it interesting that you chose a verse that defends casual determinism. This verse just points out that you have a genuine choice because God is faithful and won't let you be influenced beyond your ability to choose rightly. The influence(casual determinism) is specifically pointed out here and your ability to resist it. Just because God might foreknow your action because He can see your heart doesn't mean that He caused your action(s). It tells you He is faithful and just in not allowing outside influence to supercede your free choice. Whether the outcome is foreseen or not; doesn't have any relevance here since it is still your decision; not His.

Logic?

Yes logic. The logic I've presented is, as far as I can see, iron clad and inescapable. If God knows the future then I am going to do what He knows I'm going to do whether I want to or not. In fact, I will want to do what He knows I will want to do and there's nothing that I could or would do about it regardless of what else ever happens. That makes everything the Christian faith is about entirely meaningless. It makes repentance meaningless, it makes love meaningless, it makes justice meaningless, everything is totally and completely meaningless.

Except the Cross. You are on a doomed planet. Living in a doomed universe. Walking in a bag of dirt which will go back into the ground. Will you use the escape hatch or not? Can you choose to do right on your own with no influence whatsoever? Would that influence impede your free will?

God can predict and do so with a very high degree of certainty but that is not the same as knowing for certain. (Gen. 22:12)

12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

Do you think in this case Abraham or God learned more? Maybe God in this instance required more than usual from Abraham. An exception to the rule for an exceptional man.....

13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

[/quote]

What do you think will happen if it's truly all up to you and your 'freedom'?

This question is nonsense! What do you mean by "if it's truly all up to me and my freedom"? If what's all up to me? Do you think I'm suggesting that I'm the one who came up with the plan of salvation; that I went to God and told Him how He was going to save people and under what circumstances people would be qualified to receive His grace? Is that what you think? If so, you're delusional.

Free to do what?

To do good or to do otherwise. That's what.

How did you learn of His plan? Casual determinism? Is this how you came to know God? Maybe you're suggesting spontaneous spiritual regeneration on your part. How much influence is there really? 100%? 99%? What do you think? If your free 'to do good or to do otherwise' then why do you keep doing otherwise? Do you really believe if this isn't a real choice then.....

That makes everything the Christian faith is about entirely meaningless. It makes repentance meaningless, it makes love meaningless, it makes justice meaningless, everything is totally and completely meaningless

Your choice outside of Him is meaningless. He gave you freedom and you chose wrong. Your choices 'to do good or to do otherwise' in your freedom equate to nothing. What choice can you make that has meaning. Christ. Period. All your other choices are meaningless and not valid. Does that mean your choices aren't real? Of course not.

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

In summary: Your free choices are real, but not productive.

Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.​

If you are going to quote Scripture you might do God the favor of doing so accurately, assuming of course that you have the choice.

This verse is not teaching that men cannot do other than what the Lord's desires is for them to do. If it did, the Bible would be self-contradictory, first of all (Luke 7:30), and secondly God would be unjust to punish any such evil "steps" which He himself directed in such a way as to make it impossible to avoid.

27This is the one about whom it is written:
" (Malachi 3:1) 'I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.' I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

29(All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus' words, acknowledged that God's way was right, because they had been baptized by John. 30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God's purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.)

I find it interesting that you would use a accurate future prediction about John the Baptist as a proof for anything.

___________________________

I thought we were both mature enough to understand without specifics. I was wrong. Sorry.

Matthew 24:36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Footnotes: Matthew 24:36 Some manuscripts do not have nor the Son.

Does Jesus say in this verse that God the Father knows the future time of the second coming? If not, why not? If so, how could He without foreseeing the future. i.e. maybe He would change His mind.(but wouldn't this make Jesus at least mistaken or misleading?)

Your Friend,

Rob

 

[Clete]

No one has said you don't have the ability to do or to do otherwise. Just that God foresaw that you wouldn't choose to do otherwise. Your own ability has nothing to do with what God has accurately predicted.

Accurate prediction is not the same as foreknowledge. If God KNOWS, not simply predicts or expects but KNOWS my future action then at the moment His knowledge is sure any possibility of my doing otherwise is gone. Thus my action no longer fits the definition of freedom because I cannot do or do otherwise. All I can do is do that which God knows, nothing else.

An influenced choice is still a choice when the ability to do or to do otherwise exists by your own definition of freedom.

I never suggested otherwise. I do not deny that decisions are influenced by many factors but they are not determined by those factors. My actions are determined by my will or else I am not responsible for the action and the determining factors are.

I find it interesting that you chose a verse that defends casual determinism. This verse just points out that you have a genuine choice because God is faithful and won't let you be influenced beyond your ability to choose rightly.

This sentence is self-contradictory. Can I freely choose to do rightly or is my action the result of causal determinism? You cannot having both ways. As I have demonstrated several times now the two are mutually exclusive.

The influence(casual determinism) is specifically pointed out here and your ability to resist it.

You are using the term causal determinism incorrectly Rob. No wonder you aren't getting this.

Determinism: The world is governed by determinism if and only if, given a specified way things are at a time t, the way things go thereafter is fixed as a matter of natural law.

Causal determinism is, roughly speaking, the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature.
source​

If I have the ability to resist it, then it isn't determinism. :duh:

Just because God might foreknow your action because He can see your heart doesn't mean that He caused your action(s).

I never said otherwise. His foreknowledge would not be causal but it would be deterministic because it would remove all possibility of my doing otherwise.

It tells you He is faithful and just in not allowing outside influence to supercede your free choice.

Exactly! That's why I quoted the passage. The passage promises that there will always be a genuine alternative to sin available for me to take.

Whether the outcome is foreseen or not; doesn't have any relevance here since it is still your decision; not His.

It is relevant because for the thousandth time, if God knows what I will do, I cannot do other than what He knows; I cannot do or do otherwise.

Except the Cross. You are on a doomed planet. Living in a doomed universe. Walking in a bag of dirt which will go back into the ground. Will you use the escape hatch or not? Can you choose to do right on your own with no influence whatsoever? Would that influence impede your free will?

The Cross would be equally meaningless apart from not only my freedom of volition but God's as well.

And no, influence would not remove my freedom as long as my ability to do otherwise remains.

Do you think in this case Abraham or God learned more?

The passage couldn't be more clear. You tell me.

Maybe God in this instance required more than usual from Abraham. An exception to the rule for an exceptional man...

God is not a respector of persons Rob. God makes no exceptions to the rules.

How did you learn of His plan? Casual determinism? Is this how you came to know God?

If so my salvation is meaningless and God is amoral if not immoral.

Maybe you're suggesting spontaneous spiritual regeneration on your part.

Save your Total Depravity crap for another thread. I will not engage you on that issue here except to say that if Calvinism is true, I was predestined by God Himself to believe in free will and there's nothing you or I and anyone else can do about it.

How much influence is there really? 100%? 99%? What do you think? If your free 'to do good or to do otherwise' then why do you keep doing otherwise?

Again, I never denied the presence of influencing factors. People clearly have a propensity toward sin because we are evil by nature but that does not mean we do not freely choose to do the evil things we do nor does it mean that would couldn't have done otherwise.

Your choice outside of Him is meaningless.

My choice outside of Him is meaningless? What the crap does that mean Rob? That sentence is disconnected logically from the whole discussion and from every angle I can figure out how to read it, it's disproved by your very next statement...

He gave you freedom and you chose wrong. Your choices 'to do good or to do otherwise' in your freedom equate to nothing. What choice can you make that has meaning. Christ. Period. All your other choices are meaningless and not valid. Does that mean your choices aren't real? Of course not.

This is completely wrong Rob! It's as if I'm not even talking to a Christian! My choices to do wrong are not meaningless. God thought they meant so much that it required the sacrifice of His only begotten Son to fix. If my evil actions mean nothing, why must Christ die for my sin? If evil is meaningless, what is the purpose of an eternal Hell and why bother with the whole plan of redemption? Why must there be a price paid for something that equates to nothing?

In summary: Your free choices are real, but not productive.

Irrelevant, off topic crap. If my choices are real then I have won the debate and you can go discuss how productive they are with someone else.

I find it interesting that you would use a accurate future prediction about John the Baptist as a proof for anything.

It is proof that one can do other than that which God wills for you to do.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.​

Incidentally the Greek word in this passage for "will" if the strongest possible term for the will. It is not simply a desire or wish but this is God's determined and emphatic will that these people are rejecting for themselves.

I thought we were both mature enough to understand without specifics. I was wrong. Sorry.

I'm sorry that you've turned into such a jackass. You've almost completely abandoned honest intellectual discourse and turned into an emotional teenaged little girl. The further you go down that road, the more hostile you can expect for me to get.

Matthew 24:36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Footnotes: Matthew 24:36 Some manuscripts do not have nor the Son.

Does Jesus say in this verse that God the Father knows the future time of the second coming?

Yes, He does.

If so, how could He without foreseeing the future. i.e. maybe He would change His mind.(but wouldn't this make Jesus at least mistaken or misleading?)

He can for the same reason you can. Have you not ever made plans to do something that was within your authority and ability to do end then successfully did it? Haven't you ever taken a vacation where you planned to leave on some particular day and return on some other particular day and then pulled it all off without a hitch? Did you have to know the future to make that happen? I don't think so! How does it follow that God must be able to see into the future in order for Him to makes plans that He intends to carry out Himself?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[RobE]

I'm sorry that you've turned into such a jackass. You've almost completely abandoned honest intellectual discourse and turned into an emotional teenaged little girl. The further you go down that road, the more hostile you can expect for me to get.

I'm sorry if you offended yourself, Clete. Let me try again......

How accurate do you think God's 'predictions' are?

I never suggested otherwise. I do not deny that decisions are influenced by many factors but they are not determined by those factors. My actions are determined by my will or else I am not responsible for the action and the determining factors are.

Did your upbringing, friends, society, church, or any other outside influence cause you to behave in a certain way at any time? The choice is yours because you aren't compelled to do anything in your heart. We agree. Often times, though, we choose to do certain things because of our reaction to what we 'learned' or were influenced by earlier in our lives. Agree?

Save your Total Depravity crap for another thread. I will not engage you on that issue here except to say that if Calvinism is true, I was predestined by God Himself to believe in free will and there's nothing you or I and anyone else can do about it.
_____________
Again, I never denied the presence of influencing factors. People clearly have a propensity toward sin because we are evil by nature but that does not mean we do not freely choose to do the evil things we do nor does it mean that would couldn't have done otherwise.

Total Depravity crap? I personally believe man was created with and has basically a good nature unlike some others.

This is completely wrong Rob! It's as if I'm not even talking to a Christian! My choices to do wrong are not meaningless. God thought they meant so much that it required the sacrifice of His only begotten Son to fix. If my evil actions mean nothing, why must Christ die for my sin? If evil is meaningless, what is the purpose of an eternal Hell and why bother with the whole plan of redemption? Why must there be a price paid for something that equates to nothing?

All I was trying to say was Jesus already paid the price for your wrong decisions and nullified their effect. Redemption is the purpose and choice God's pointing us towards. Once the price is paid then that something(wrongdoing) becomes nothing. That's all I was getting at. You can't save yourself through your actions. You already believe this. Sorry you got so offended.

He can for the same reason you can. Have you not ever made plans to do something that was within your authority and ability to do end then successfully did it? Haven't you ever taken a vacation where you planned to leave on some particular day and return on some other particular day and then pulled it all off without a hitch? Did you have to know the future to make that happen? I don't think so! How does it follow that God must be able to see into the future in order for Him to makes plans that He intends to carry out Himself?

My point here was how do you know that He still intends to carry them out? If He doesn't then Jesus was either mistaken or misleading.

The question I really want to know is How accurately can God predict things?

Patiently,

Rob

 

[Bob Hill]

godrulz,

When the Kingdom was Proclaimed by John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus Christ, salvation at that time was dependant on keeping the commandments.

In contrast, when we are saved in the dispensation of grace, all we must do is believe that Christ died for our sins and trust Him for our salvation.

Doing good works based on belief were necessary for salvation for the dispensation just prior to the one given to Paul by the resurrected Christ.

Notice how that is emphasized again in Mat 19:16-22 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “’You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. (NKJV)

It was the same thing in Mark 10. Mark 10:17-19 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” 18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’” (NKJV)

Now, in contrast, in the dispensation of grace, works are not necessary for us to be saved. They are good to do, but salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as our Savior.

That means God’s program for us today is different from all His previous programs and future programs. We see how unique God’s program for us is when we read about Paul’s commission in Eph 3:1-9: “For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gracious gift of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the untraceable riches of Christ, 9 and make all see what is the dispensation (The reading here is attested by the Majority text and the Critical text. oikonomia) of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.”

God inspired him to repeat this explanation in Col 1:25-27: [The church]of which I became a minister according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to fulfill [to complete, make full, fill] the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To whom God willed to make known what are the glorious riches of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

godrulz and others,

We can see that prophecies made before Paul was saved, from Genesis to Acts nine, have nothing to do with this dispensation. Why? Because this dispensation is called the dispensation of the mystery.

We see this in Eph 3:8,9 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Rom 16:25,26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret in age times 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith.

It also means that nothing was known about the church which is the body of Christ before it was revealed to the Apostle Paul. Because it is a mystery – a secret.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

 

[Lighthouse]

The law said that adultery is sin. When was this principle rescinded?

When a Christian pastor commits adultery, what do you call it? A mistake? Call it what the Bible calls it (in both covenants). Sin is not a thing that is imputed. It is a wrong moral choice or lawlessness. The penalty of sin may not be imputed if a substitute for the penalty is given (the cross) and the guilty person comes in repentant faith with a willingness to love and obey again.

Jesus summed up the Decalogue as loving God supremely and others equal to ourselves. Falling short of this mark, in both covenants, can be called sin. I John must be exegeted carefully (as well as Pauline teaching on the nature of sin).

A Christian can sin. There is provision if a Christian sins (I Jn. 1:9). If the choice of adultery is sin one day before being born again, do you really think the semantics change one day after being born again if the new believer lapses into old issues of the flesh?

Sin is not a substance. This is the reason 'original sin' is Augustinian, not biblical. Volition/choice are never divorced from sin. This is why we are responsible/accountable.

Sozo-LH will appreciate your view, but it goes against most credible harmartiology (study of doctrine of sin) and soteriology (salvation).

FYI-
I explained my stance to Clete, and I believe, he can correct me if I'm wrong, that it was my explanantion that caused him to see it this way as well. Before that he did not agree.

 

[Bob Hill]

godrulz,

We see in the book of James that James wrote “to the twelve tribes who were scattered abroad” that they were justified by faith plus works.
Jam 2:11,12,14,20,21,24,25 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

godrulz,

Our security is another big difference between the dispensation of the mystery/grace, and the dispensation when the Kingdom was proclaimed by John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus Christ.

We are sealed and secure. They weren’t.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption.

They have to endure under circumcision.
Mat 24:9-14 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Bob Hill