ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

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RobE

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themuzicman said:
Yet, that isn't the case. Sometimes God prefers justice, other times God prefers mercy.

I think it's quite clear that God prefers one over the other in accordance with His revealed nature.

If God hadn't promised the seed of the woman who turned out to be the Messiah, you might have a point. However, God did promise such a thing, and to not fulfhill His promises would be a violation of His character.

Thus, BT's objection is not valid.​

BT's objection is that the o.v. would allow God to change His mind despite His word in certain situations where there are equal righteous choices(which responds to your question to his assertion). Such as situations that the o.v.ers base their arguments(Tyre, Nineveh) upon. Certainly a foundation of sand.

BT's objection stands because if it fails then the o.v. arguments fail.

Originally Posted by BT

So, in other words maybe God could change His mind about the whole salvation thing, and decide to just give us all the hell that we all deserve. Who knows, we really can't trust God in regards to any of the promises He has made to either us or Israel because He could very easily just change His mind about all of it.

Cordially,
Rob
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
RobE said:
I think it's quite clear that God prefers one over the other in accordance with His revealed nature.

Tell that to the young boys who called Elijah "Baldie".

If God hadn't promised the seed of the woman who turned out to be the Messiah, you might have a point. However, God did promise such a thing, and to not fulfhill His promises would be a violation of His character.

Thus, BT's objection is not valid.​

BT's objection is that the o.v. would allow God to change His mind despite His word in certain situations where there are equal righteous choices(which responds to your question to his assertion). Such as situations that the o.v.ers base their arguments(Tyre, Nineveh) upon. Certainly a foundation of sand.

Would it be righteous for God to promise a redeemer of creation and a covenant of salvation to all who believe in Him, and then change His mind?

BT's objection stands because if it fails then the o.v. arguments fail.

That's just silly.

Muz
 

RobE

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themuzicman said:
Tell that to the young boys who called Elijah "Baldie".

:D

Would it be righteous for God to promise a redeemer of creation and a covenant of salvation to all who believe in Him, and then change His mind?

Well the earlier statement stated that God kept His word according to His immutable character. Maybe that was missed.

That's just silly.

Would you mind qualifying why you think it's silly?

Do you deny that God keeps His word to us according to His immutable character?

Rob
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
RobE said:
Well the earlier statement stated that God kept His word according to His immutable character. Maybe that was missed.



Would you mind qualifying why you think it's silly?

Do you deny that God keeps His word to us according to His immutable character?

Rob

Within the context in which He speaks it, yes.

Muz
 

RobE

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themuzicman said:
Within the context in which He speaks it, yes.

Muz

How does the context differ between Neb.(Tyre) and the foretelling of a redeemer?

BT's objection stands because if it fails then the o.v. arguments fail.​

How is my statement above false?

Rob
 

elected4ever

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RobE said:
I would like to agree with Godrulz that God will not make a decision contrary to His immutable character while simultaneously containing the ability to do so. This is where His holiness and worthiness are expressed. I should also note that His 'will' is what makes His decisions immutable and unchangeable against Godrulz' and open theists' speculations. God will always act according to righteousness despite his ability to do otherwise. I foreknow this and God retains the ability to do otherwise even though His actions are foreknown.

Rob
:noway:
 

Lighthouse

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Rob-
Are you saying God is powerless to change His mind? Are you saying He is so weak that He cannot even become mutable?
 

RobE

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Lighthouse said:
Rob-
Are you saying God is powerless to change His mind? Are you saying He is so weak that He cannot even become mutable?

I'm saying God will not make a decision which is contradictory to His character. Changing your mind doesn't change yourself. God is immutable.

R
 

Lighthouse

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RobE said:
I'm saying God will not make a decision which is contradictory to His character. Changing your mind doesn't change yourself. God is immutable.

R
His character is immutable, yes. But that doesn't mean He is completely immutable. You just admitted that He could change His mind, didn't you?
 

RobE

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Lighthouse said:
His character is immutable, yes. But that doesn't mean He is completely immutable. You just admitted that He could change His mind, didn't you?

As I always have. Changing your mind doesn't mean that you are mutable. That's the error I think.
 

godrulz

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RobE said:
I'm saying God will not make a decision which is contradictory to His character. Changing your mind doesn't change yourself. God is immutable.

R

God is immutable in some ways, but not in other ways (weak vs strong immutability in theological terms).

I Sam. 15 shows that He changes His mind sometimes, but not at other times. He is personal, so He can change His mind in response to changing contingencies (several clear biblical e.g. could be given).

He is unchanging in His essential, triune, uncreated, spirit nature. His essential attributes do not change and His character is also unchanging.

He can and does change His mind, will, experiences, relations, and knowledge (things move from the potential future to the fixed past through the present and possible objects of knowledge become certain or actual in the present).

The incarnation is another profound change in the Godhead. The Word became flesh. The Word was not always flesh.
 

elected4ever

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Lighthouse said:
His character is immutable, yes. But that doesn't mean He is completely immutable. You just admitted that He could change His mind, didn't you?
God never changes His mind.. He acts according to immutable character 100% of the time. God's responses are determined by His holy and righteous character.

It appears to us, as humans, to be a mind change when in reality it is simply doing justly according to human change of mind. The change is in us, not God. Humans do change their mind and change character by doing so. This is not true with God and we need to be careful in assigning to God this human characteristic. I do not think that the two should be understood in the same way.
 

RobE

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godrulz said:
God is immutable in some ways, but not in other ways (weak vs strong immutability in theological terms).

I Sam. 15 shows that He changes His mind sometimes, but not at other times. He is personal, so He can change His mind in response to changing contingencies (several clear biblical e.g. could be given).

He is unchanging in His essential, triune, uncreated, spirit nature. His essential attributes do not change and His character is also unchanging.

He can and does change His mind, will, experiences, relations, and knowledge (things move from the potential future to the fixed past through the present and possible objects of knowledge become certain or actual in the present).

The incarnation is another profound change in the Godhead. The Word became flesh. The Word was not always flesh.

Has God ever changed His mind? How do you know?

Rob
 

godrulz

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RobE said:
Has God ever changed His mind? How do you know?

Rob


Yes. Hezekiah is one of several examples (you are a dead duck, then he changed his mind and added 15 years to his life, in response to prayer). We know because of God's self-revelation in various verses. Your camp wrongly must make these things anthropomorphic or figurative without warrant. If the same strong language was used about anyone but God, you would accept the obvious communication. Because it does not fit a preconceived theology, you must water down the intent of God's communication leaving no way for God to communicate that he could or would change his mind (whether you think he can or not).


A change of mind is personal perfection, not an imperfection or compromise of perfect character (e4e misunderstands this). A being who cannot change in response to changing contingencies would have to compromise His character.

I Sam. 15:10, 35, 29 (change of disposition/thought about a decision when Saul went bad; He will not change His mind about the subsequent judgment initiated) gives two seemingly contradictory verses (see Malachi 3:6 God will not change in a fickle, capricious way, but will be faithful to His character when He does change in response to prayer, repentance, etc....). The problem is with a wrong theology, not the Word. In some cases, God changes His mind. In other cases, He will not change His mind no matter what. This is based on relationship with man, not metaphysical impossibility. There is a difference between will not and cannot.
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
God does change His mind!

At one time, I thought the doctrine of immutability was correct, that God was immutable, unchanging, and thus, never changed His mind. But when I saw in the Scriptures that God changed His mind over 30 times, and that He also repented of some of His declarations, I had to change my mind.

A verse that is often cited was Balaam’s statement in Num. 23:19: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do it?

When the Bible shows us God being sorry, repenting, and changing His mind, it shows us that He is also a free agent.

God’s choice of repenting is expressed truthfully in His word.

We have a wonderful God who loves the world so much, that He sent His Son to die for us.

Does God ever say that He never changes His mind, or does He show us in Scripture that He does change His mind?

God gives us a direct statement about whether or not He repents, about changing His mind. This is in Jer. 18:5-10 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

God does change His mind, and He does repent, at times.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

godrulz

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My pastor preached on God's attributes today. I had to disagree with the simplistic, traditional understanding of immutability (he quoted Mal. 3:6 as a proof text) and omniscience (the verses merely showed that God knows the past and present perfectly...this cannot be extrapolated to also include all future free will contingencies/exhaustive foreknowledge).
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
In Jeremiah 26, God told Jeremiah, “Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them.”

Jeremiah 26:1-6: In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, this word came from the LORD, saying, 2 “Thus says the LORD: ‘Stand in the court of the LORD’s house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the LORD’s house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word. 3 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.’ 4 “And you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD: “If you will not listen to Me, to walk in My law which I have set before you, 5 to heed the words of My servants the prophets whom I sent to you, both rising up early and sending them (but you have not heeded), 6 then I will make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.”’”

It’s amazing how many times God repented in the Old Testament.

Bob Hill
 

Nathon Detroit

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LIFETIME MEMBER
RobE said:
Has God ever changed His mind? How do you know?

Rob
God makes Israel a promise...
Josh 3:10 And Joshua said, By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites.

Did this happen?

No.

Josh 16:10 And they did not drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites to this day and have become forced laborers.​

But Why?

Jud 2:1-3 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars. But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.​

Because of their disobedience, God changed His mind and did not give them the blessing He promised them.
 

RobE

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Godrulz, Knight, and Bob Hill

Godrulz, Knight, and Bob Hill

godrulz said:
A change of mind is personal perfection, not an imperfection or compromise of perfect character (e4e misunderstands this). A being who cannot change in response to changing contingencies would have to compromise His character.

I Sam. 15:10, 35, 29 (change of disposition/thought about a decision when Saul went bad; He will not change His mind about the subsequent judgment initiated) gives two seemingly contradictory verses (see Malachi 3:6 God will not change in a fickle, capricious way, but will be faithful to His character when He does change in response to prayer, repentance, etc....).

I understand when you take these instances one at a time they seem to denote a change of mind. However, when you look at them from the perspective of other statements which the Lord made, then you begin to see that statements don't conflict with God's intent. A good example is.......

Deut. 31: 15 Then the LORD appeared at the Tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the Tent. 16 And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' 18 And I will certainly hide my face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.

And when you consider the curses for disobedience which He laid out for the people beforehand, you see a plan and history unfolding throughout all of the situations which seem indicate a change of mind.....

Blessings for obedience and consequences of disobedience

The story of Saul is especially telling in respect to how God operates. Here's God suggesting a king over Israel which was foretold of in Deuteronomy. It was the peoples' wish to have a king rule over them just as was foretold of prior to the event.

Deut. 17: 14 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, "Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us," 15 be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers.​

1 Samuel 8: 6 But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do."​

1 Samuel 10: 23 They ran and brought him out, and as he stood among the people he was a head taller than any of the others. 24 Samuel said to all the people, "Do you see the man the LORD has chosen? There is no one like him among all the people."
Then the people shouted, "Long live the king!"​

1 Samuel 12:16 "Now then, stand still and see this great thing the LORD is about to do before your eyes! 17 Is it not wheat harvest now? I will call upon the LORD to send thunder and rain. And you will realize what an evil thing you did in the eyes of the LORD when you asked for a king."​

God did not say that He wouldn't remove His endorsement of a King. In fact, God removed His endorsement of Saul many years before Saul's death. God didn't replace Saul, but did develop a King which would become the forefather of Jesus. Just as Isaac was Abraham's second son, Jacob ursurped Esau, Jesus ursurped Adam,and Abel was greater than Cain, David(the second King) would become the greatest king of Israel.

The scriptures foretell Israel's disobedience from Moses' deathbead and of a king appointed according to the peoples' will during Moses' life. If you take the time to read the curses for disobedience, and then you consider in the next chapter God tells Moses specifically that Israel will be disobedient, and when you consider the entire history of the Jewish people you start to gain an understanding which is greater than the individual instances. An understanding which shows you a plan and intent from the beginning.

The tale of Hezekiah is similar to the story of the blind man which was made blind so that God could reveal His power to us through a sign. I've discussed the Hezekiah situation extensively on other threads extensively.

Rob
 

Lighthouse

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RobE said:
As I always have. Changing your mind doesn't mean that you are mutable. That's the error I think.
That's just stupid. His mind is changeable, and therefore mutable. His physicality is changeable [for He did become flesh] and is therefore mutable.
 
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