ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[patman]

Hi everyone,


Yes, I agree.


But just because God did not tell him to repent when he addressed Job and his other friends, that does not mean he had nothing to repent of. Note that God did not tell Job’s wife “Repent!’, though she had said “Curse God and die…”


Then did God not bring the cross on Jesus?

John 18:11 “Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?"

And there are many examples of this, Job among them, you have not yet explained to me what “the trouble the Lord had brought on him” means. Similarly, we see this in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 21:3-6 This is what the Lord says: “I am against you. I will draw my sword from its scabbard and cut off from you both the righteous and the wicked. Because I am going to cut off the righteous and the wicked, my sword will be unsheathed against everyone from south to north. Then all people will know that I the Lord have drawn my sword from its scabbard; it will not return again.” Therefore groan, son of man! Groan before them with broken heart and bitter grief.

And similarly here:

2 Samuel 7:14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men.

Amos 3:6 When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it?

Isaiah 10:16-17 Does the ax raise itself above him who swings it, or the saw boast against him who uses it? As if a rod were to wield him who lifts it up, or a club brandish him who is not wood! Isaiah Therefore, the Lord, the Lord Almighty, will send a wasting disease upon his sturdy warriors...


Actually, there was a mediator, and even a messiah who would come:

Job 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.


Well, no, Job made the mistake of claiming he was even more righteous than God, and for this he had to repent.


And I believe believers can really choose, within God’s will, but not unbelievers. And conversion is not a marriage, it is a birth, and babies do not choose their birth.


Isn’t the Lord’s statement like a prediction, though? “For in the day you eat of it, you will surely die,” it’s almost like the Lord knew they were doing to do that.

Blessings,
Lee

Lee, do you understand the meaning of the word "innocent?"

 

[patman]

Lee, a yes or no will do.

 

[Philetus]

Lee,
Your anachronisms never cease to amaze. You are guilty of engaging in the same religious small talk that failed to address Job’s primary concern in the first place. Job rejects the cliché answers and comes to see and accept, if not understand, that suffering calls our life into question, not God’s. The book of Job is not about avoiding suffering, or even placing blame for our suffering … it is about entering into our suffering with bold honesty and looking for evidence of the mystery that God is in our suffering as well as in our wellbeing. God sees our suffering and shares our pain. The only thing that Job teaches us is that there is no correlation between the amounts of wrong we do and the amount of pain we suffer and that it ain’t God’s fault.

​

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Lee: And I believe believers can really choose, within God’s will, but not unbelievers. And conversion is not a marriage, it is a birth, and babies do not choose their birth.

Clete: Ephesians 5 not withstanding, right?

Ephesians 5:27 … and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

I would say this is yet in the future, believers still have stains and wrinkles, and are not yet perfectly holy. The presentation will be the wedding day:

Revelation 19:7-9 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!'" And he added, "These are the true words of God."

Lee, do you understand the meaning of the word "innocent?"

Yes, I think so.

Job rejects the cliché answers and comes to see and accept, if not understand, that suffering calls our life into question, not God’s.

I agree, “Does Job serve God for nothing?” is the main issue here.

The book of Job is not about avoiding suffering, or even placing blame for our suffering … it is about entering into our suffering with bold honesty and looking for evidence of the mystery that God is in our suffering as well as in our wellbeing.

God is indeed in our suffering, and this bring grace and assurance, and James would also add this, as well:

James 5:10-11 Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

Patience under suffering is rewarded!

James 1:2-3 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know …

In this life, and in the life to come.

Isn’t it better if any evil can be overcome? Isn’t it better to have the possibility of great victory? I wouldn’t want the summit of all challenge to be winning a race or a contest or two.

There’s more to life than that, and I’m glad.

The only thing that Job teaches us is that there is no correlation between the amounts of wrong we do and the amount of pain we suffer and that it ain’t God’s fault.

I agree, here, but is that is all, though? Don’t we also learn that the devil is seeking to get people to lose faith and blaspheme God? Don’t we also learn that what seems obvious to us in spiritual matters may well be quite mistaken? Don’t we learn that our knowledge of God and his ways is incomparably small compared to ultimate reality, even in nature, our ignorance is abysmal?

Don’t we learn that God repays in abundance for those who are faithful?

Don’t we learn that “The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away,” and we should accept trouble from the Lord?

"This is the same lesson we learn from 2 Cor. 12:7 where Paul says that his thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan, and yet was given for the purpose of his own holiness. 'To keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me – to keep me from exalting myself!' Now, humility is not Satan's purpose in this affliction. Therefore the purpose is God's. Which means that Satan here is being used by God to accomplish his good purposes in Paul's life." (John Piper)

“Blessed be the name of the Lord…”

Blessings,
Lee

 

[patman]

Yes, I think so.

Good. When God brought disaster on Assyria, were they or were they not innocent?

 

[Philetus]

Hi everyone,


Ephesians 5:27 … and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

I would say this is yet in the future, believers still have stains and wrinkles, and are not yet perfectly holy. The presentation will be the wedding day:

Revelation 19:7-9 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!'" And he added, "These are the true words of God."

Yes, I think so.

I agree, “Does Job serve God for nothing?” is the main issue here.

God is indeed in our suffering, and this bring grace and assurance, and James would also add this, as well:

James 5:10-11 Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job's perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

Patience under suffering is rewarded!

James 1:2-3 Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know …

In this life, and in the life to come.

Isn’t it better if any evil can be overcome? Isn’t it better to have the possibility of great victory? I wouldn’t want the summit of all challenge to be winning a race or a contest or two.

There’s more to life than that, and I’m glad.


I agree, here, but is that is all, though? Don’t we also learn that the devil is seeking to get people to lose faith and blaspheme God? Don’t we also learn that what seems obvious to us in spiritual matters may well be quite mistaken? Don’t we learn that our knowledge of God and his ways is incomparably small compared to ultimate reality, even in nature, our ignorance is abysmal?

Don’t we learn that God repays in abundance for those who are faithful?

Don’t we learn that “The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away,” and we should accept trouble from the Lord?

"This is the same lesson we learn from 2 Cor. 12:7 where Paul says that his thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan, and yet was given for the purpose of his own holiness. 'To keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me – to keep me from exalting myself!' Now, humility is not Satan's purpose in this affliction. Therefore the purpose is God's. Which means that Satan here is being used by God to accomplish his good purposes in Paul's life." (John Piper)

“Blessed be the name of the Lord…”

Blessings,
Lee

Lee
God and Satan, good and evil are diabolically opposed to one another. God is accomplishing His purposes regardless of and despite Satan’s work in the world, not in concert with it.

God working with us in our suffering to accomplish his intentions is not the same as God causing evil. Lee, most of your statements (or rhetorical questions) above are benign in them selves and learned not from Job’s story but from Christian Scriptures and then imposed on the story. Even with the instruction of the New Testament we are still not privy to all the information to make conclusive judgments as to why individuals suffer. My point is that you continually use proof texts out of context to support a closed future and God’s culpability in sin and the existence of evil. It just won’t hold water. Let Job speak for himself. Make your argument from the New Testament … it may be stronger if you do, but I don’t think so. Suffering is an opportunity for God to display His glory (who sinned, this man or his parents?). And God doesn’t create opportunities by making men suffer … they simply abound because sin abounds. And where sin and resulting suffering abounds, God meets it with abounding Grace.

Job’s statement: “The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away,” does not support your argument that God is the cause of sin and suffering.


I'll let you and Patman finish with Job. I gota go to work. Thanks for the exchange.

Philetus


​

 

[godrulz]

Lee
God and Satan, good and evil are diabolically opposed to one another.
​

Freudian slip or you have coined a new phrase? Diabolically opposed vs diametrically opposed?

 

[Philetus]

Freudian slip or you have coined a new phrase? Diabolically opposed vs diametrically opposed?

Well, I slap myself silly.:shut: Freudian for sure…. how embarrassing.:sigh: It doesn’t pay to get in a hurry. Diabolically is ‘defiantly’ only a half truth. More SV than anything.
:devil: :banana:

Thanks Godrulz.

​

 

[Bob Hill]

Philetus,

We all make mistakes. I lost track of my mistakes about 45 years ago.

Bob Hill

 

[Bob Hill]

I was asked a question because of this statement I made on my web site: "The open view of God is growing in America, but Calvinists do not like it one bit. The most important thing that I would advise you and your husband is to be sure you are focusing on God and striving to love Him. Then, allow Him to fill you with His fruit of the Spirit so you will continue in your love for your pastor and other Christians who may disagree with you." “This was a statement in your answer to one of the questions on your site. My question to you concerning this is, do you hold to the Open Theist view of God?"

My answer was: “Yes I do believe that God is able to change His mind. The broad definition of this belief is ‘Open Theism’, but sometimes a broad paintbrush includes too much. Please visit our website, biblicalanswers.com, and you will get a better idea of what I believe.

Now, I would also say they should go to Theology online as well.

In Christ’s precious name,
Bob Hill

 

[Philetus]

I
My answer was: “Yes I do believe that God is able to change His mind. The broad definition of this belief is ‘Open Theism’, but sometimes a broad paintbrush includes too much. Please visit our website, biblicalanswers.com, and you will get a better idea of what I believe.

Now, I would also say they should go to Theology online as well.

In Christ’s precious name,
Bob Hill

Well said. Which Theology online site are you refering to?

Philetus

PS. I use to keep track of all my mistakes and the thing I do right. Then I realized that the rain forests of the world were disappearing. So I started burning the list. We heated my whole house for 8 years. I still have the 3x5 card of the thing I do right. Who knows in a few years I might even need to turn it over and write on the back. But not likely. It does makes a good book mark though. :jazz:

BTW, The thing I do right?... apologize.


​

 

[Bob Hill]

Philetus,

The theologyonline we are on.

Bob

 

[Bob Hill]

Philetus,

Yes, I hope it is the things you do right!

Bob

 

[Philetus]

Philetus,

The theologyonline we are on.

Bob

Well, duh. :doh: :rotfl: It's the meds. I though you had found a great sight with all the questions answered. I keep telling all my friends to come here and signup. TOL is the greatest forum for debate and learning.

Thanks Pastor Hill.

Philetus

​

 

[Bob Hill]

Thanks to you, also Philetus!!

Bob

 

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

When God brought disaster on Assyria, were they or were they not innocent?

The Assyrians were not innocent. Job, however, was, as were the righteous people Ezekiel refers to in Eze. 21:3-4.

Psalm 44:11-13,22 You gave us up to be devoured like sheep and have scattered us among the nations. You sold your people for a pittance, gaining nothing from their sale. You have made us a reproach to our neighbors, the scorn and derision of those around us. … for your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

But see Romans 8…

Philetus: God and Satan, good and evil are diabolically opposed to one another. God is accomplishing His purposes regardless of and despite Satan’s work in the world, not in concert with it.

I agree that God is not working in concert with the devil, however, the devil serves God’s good purposes. Sorry if this bothers people!

I find it rather comforting.

Luke 10:19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

As here:

Luke 21:16-19 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. All men will hate you because of me. But not a hair of your head will perish. By standing firm you will gain life.

God working with us in our suffering to accomplish his intentions is not the same as God causing evil.

I agree these are different, however, your job here is to show that God does not bring suffering through the hands of sinful men.

My point is that you continually use proof texts out of context to support a closed future and God’s culpability in sin and the existence of evil. It just won’t hold water.

This however, is not the explanation I was looking for.

Make your argument from the New Testament …

If you wish…

Romans 8:36-37 As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors [present tense, actually—superconquering!] through him who loved us.

2 Corinthians 2:14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ …

And God doesn’t create opportunities by making men suffer … they simply abound because sin abounds.

Which reminds me of a NT verse! This one:

Romans 5:20-21 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Job’s statement: “The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away,” does not support your argument that God is the cause of sin and suffering.

A flat denial will not somehow convince me, though, I do think the text is plain indeed, and says the Lord took away.

"Blessed be the name of the Lord..."

Blessings,
Lee

 

[Philetus]

LEE: This however, is not the explanation I was looking for.

Really, Lee? I’m shocked. :jazz: :crackup:

LEE:
I agree that God is not working in concert with the devil, however, the devil serves God’s good purposes. Sorry if this bothers people!
I find it rather comforting.

What should bother us all (especially you, Lee) is that this doctrine of yours contradicts your superficial agreement that the devil operates in direct opposition to the will of God. Your continued insistence that somehow the evil that the devil does and causes through temptation in and through the actions of evil men is after all the will of God is so contrary to the Good News it is pathetic. The devil is a liar; the author of lies. He is out to destroy God’s Good work. He will be destroyed; not rewarded by God for his help in accomplishing some ‘greater good’. Evil makes NO CONTRUBITION to the work of God in the world! The only divine purpose the devil serves is fodder for the eternal fires of Hell.

What I find comforting is that with every temptation to do evil God is not ‘pulling off some greater good’ as you hold, but is rather providing a way of escape; a divine alternative to the very evil that you claim is God’s will anyway. What I find comforting, what gives me hope, is that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus ... and NOTHING includes Calvinism.

The very fact that you find comfort in your position is alarming. No wonder the world is so confused about the Gospel. You are so typical of the confused people I run into every day in the alleys who think their lives are falling apart because God is trying to pull of 'some greater good'. Their lives are falling apart because they don’t realize that all things hold together in Christ Jesus and it is because of their own lack of faith in Him and their cooperation with the Evil One that they can’t get it together. You owe them an apology for even suggesting the enemy's work in their lives is somehow God’s will.

A flat denial of your position is the only thing you might ever hear.

Philetus

​

 

[Bob Hill]

Philetus,

That was great!!!

Bob

 

[patman]

Hi everyone,


The Assyrians were not innocent. Job, however, was, as were the righteous people Ezekiel refers to in Eze. 21:3-4.

Psalm 44:11-13,22 You gave us up to be devoured like sheep and have scattered us among the nations. You sold your people for a pittance, gaining nothing from their sale. You have made us a reproach to our neighbors, the scorn and derision of those around us. … for your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.

But see Romans 8…

Lee, you have such a mislead view of verses and their meanings.

The people of Eze. 21:3-4 were not righteous. You do not understand what was going on at all to make this statement. The verse refers to Israel. They had sinned and worshiped other Gods. The nation has sinned. God was punishing the nation of sinners.

Look just a few verses later

24 "Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: 'Because you people have brought to mind your guilt by your open rebellion, revealing your sins in all that you do—because you have done this, you will be taken captive.

You do not understand the story at all. God was handing over the entire nation to Babylon because of the nation's sin, they were not innocent. But as life goes, the righteous are effected. But God told the righteous, in other parts of this story, what to do to make it easier on them.

GOD IS FOR THE RIGHTEOUS LEE! And is use bold letters though I am not shouting at you. I am shouting in joy that our God is a good God who is for the righteous. GOD IS GOOD AND PRAISE HE IS DUE because he does not bring disaster on the righteous.

Surely you can see God was bringing this to the wicked, and the innocent bystanders were simply unintentional but bound to be effected. It is life, not God bringing judgement on an innocent person.

You admitted your other verses were pertaining to the wicked. Lee, I agree that God brings disaster on the wicked. NOT the innocent, not Job. Satan did that to Job independently of God.

So that is the conclusion you should take on. God punishes the wicked, and not the innocent. And in both conclusions, God is certainly not causing sin!

 

[patman]

Psalm 31:23
Oh, love the LORD, all you His saints!For the LORD preserves the faithful, And fully repays the proud person.

Isaiah 59:18
According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, Fury to His adversaries, Recompense to His enemies; The coastlands He will fully repay.

Psalm 10:14
But You have seen, for You observe trouble and grief,To repay it by Your hand. The helpless commits himself to You; You are the helper of the fatherless.

Lee, according to you, we should watch our backs because God will cause sin and evil for anyone regardless of his righteous standing. God says differently. To you, the fatherless are just as cheated out of justice and goodness as the wicked are, by God's decree.

By your take on things, Job is right. What advantage is there to being a good person when God does these things. But Job was wrong, thank God, and Elihu was right. God rewards good with good. Not good with evil, as you say he does.