godrulz said:
Creation now groans and needs redemption. Heinous evil exists whereas it did not exist when God pronounced things 'very good'. Creation is fallen, marred. Satan runs around. Hitler kills Jews. God was grieved after the Fall (it is still not perfect/very good). Creation is still 'good', but it is not the way God intended. Paradise is no longer.
We don't know this to be true.
Christ's death came after the fact of the Fall. It was a necessity WHEN the Fall happened, not BEFORE the Fall. You are looking in retrospect. The POSSIBLE plan of redemption became certain after the Fall (not trillions of years ago) and was actualized in the first century.
John 17:24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Ephesians 1:4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
1 Peter 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
1) If He doesn't desire it then why does He allow it?
Q1: I do not desire my kids to get drunk, fornicate, etc., but I do allow it by not killing them or locking them in their room forever. If God is to allow genuine freedom in order to have reciprocal love relationships, then the possiblity vs necessity of evil is the double-edged sword. He could have not created or created robots, but this was a lesser good than risking creating significant others.
This seems to say that there might be competing desires which would cause us to allow evil for a greater purpose. Doesn't this mean that we desire to allow the evil to achieve the greater purpose?
2) Where did man get the free will to murder from?
Q2: Free will is from God. We are in the personal, moral, spiritual image of God. We are self-determining creatures (compared to rocks and plants).
Of course, but isn't that free will a cause allowing the ability to murder?
3) Might there be an intended reason for God to allow suffering?
Q3: Suffering and death were not God's intentions
How do we know this?
He allowed it rather than not create or creating robots. He is able to mitigate against it. It can build character and trust and maturity in man. Jesus suffered things as a man. God is not insulated from suffering. Giving us grace to endure inevitable suffering does not mean God intends, desires, causes, etc. suffering. He could end all suffering (and He will), but that would mean killing us all or turning us into robotic slaves.
These are good reasons to allow suffering.
I do not intend or desire suffering for my family, but the very act of letting them live in a fallen world and take risks makes it possible that they may be beaten, in an accident, get sick, etc. I could lock them up in a bubble and unduly control their lives and circumstances...but at what expense. Suffering is dealt with in the wisdom of God and parents. These contingencies are responded to, but it is not proof they were blueprinted by God (Jesus shows us a warfare model vs blueprint model of God's sovereignty...Satan and God are clashing for the souls of men...God triumphs in the end, but not without casualites...some go to hell, contrary to the plan and heart of God).
Don't we foreknow that our children will suffer; all the while, we desire for them to exist. This isn't cruel it's love. We brought our children into the world with God's help despite foreknowing that they will suffer. Their lives are greater than suffering, just as our intentions are.
Rob