ARCHIVE - geoff's colossal contradiction (subtitled) HIS CONVERSION TO OPEN THEISM!
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jobeth
Member
Geoff:
The chicken came first.
Evolution Scientists claim that a chicken is just an egg's way of making another egg.
But we know that God created the birds and the animals and all plants with their seed in them. Gen 1:11 "whose seed is in itself".
We Creationists say that an egg or a seed is just God's way of multiplying and replenishing the earth with chickens and fruit and whatnot.
God takes such good care of us, doesn't He?
The chicken came first.
Evolution Scientists claim that a chicken is just an egg's way of making another egg.
But we know that God created the birds and the animals and all plants with their seed in them. Gen 1:11 "whose seed is in itself".
We Creationists say that an egg or a seed is just God's way of multiplying and replenishing the earth with chickens and fruit and whatnot.
God takes such good care of us, doesn't He?
TULIP-5SOLAS
New member
geoff,
Hey dude, sorry I misspelled your name
Hey dude, sorry I misspelled your name
jobeth
Member
Geoff:
I don't get it. How is the question "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" a metaphor for the question "Which came first, absolute Foreknowledge or Absolute Sovereignty?"
The power to reproduce a chicken is INHERENT in the chicken.
In the same way, the power of Absolute Foreknowledge is INHERENT in the power of being the Sole Creator of Everything.
Is that what you mean?
Or did you mean that in the same way we cannot know which came first, the chicken or the egg, so we cannot know which is causitive, God's Foreknowledge or God's Creative Power?
I don't get it. How is the question "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" a metaphor for the question "Which came first, absolute Foreknowledge or Absolute Sovereignty?"
The power to reproduce a chicken is INHERENT in the chicken.
In the same way, the power of Absolute Foreknowledge is INHERENT in the power of being the Sole Creator of Everything.
Is that what you mean?
Or did you mean that in the same way we cannot know which came first, the chicken or the egg, so we cannot know which is causitive, God's Foreknowledge or God's Creative Power?
jobeth
Member
Geoff:
God's foreknowledge PRECEEDED God's Creation of all things.
But, just as you said, (and I've always agreed with you on this point) foreknowledge is not the CAUSE of an action EVEN THOUGH Foreknowledge preceeds action.
This is so by definition. Foreknowledge means to know what will happen BEFORE it happens.
Not everything that happens first causes what happens later.
For instance:
A man marries a woman from Colorado.
Later on, they move to New Zealand.
Therefore, marrying women from Colorado causes you to move to New Zealand.
Here's another one:
Women start wearing bras in their teens.
Women get breast cancer later in life.
Therefore, wearing bras causes breast cancer.
I could go on and on just for fun and then you can dream up some and we could let the others play and have a contest for the most ridiculous.
Seriously, I'm really enjoying responding to these metaphorical questions of yours. But, do you have a point you'd like to make?
God's foreknowledge PRECEEDED God's Creation of all things.
But, just as you said, (and I've always agreed with you on this point) foreknowledge is not the CAUSE of an action EVEN THOUGH Foreknowledge preceeds action.
This is so by definition. Foreknowledge means to know what will happen BEFORE it happens.
Not everything that happens first causes what happens later.
For instance:
A man marries a woman from Colorado.
Later on, they move to New Zealand.
Therefore, marrying women from Colorado causes you to move to New Zealand.
Here's another one:
Women start wearing bras in their teens.
Women get breast cancer later in life.
Therefore, wearing bras causes breast cancer.
I could go on and on just for fun and then you can dream up some and we could let the others play and have a contest for the most ridiculous.
Seriously, I'm really enjoying responding to these metaphorical questions of yours. But, do you have a point you'd like to make?
geoff
New member
JoBeth:
You *say* foreknowledge does not cause things, however, you *say* that God foreknows things, which He then brings to pass, which is identicle to saying foreknowledge causes things to happen.
You need to correct your statement to 'God foreknows all things which will come to pass' - which of course indicates that there are somethings which are not caused by God, but which he foreknows will happen... this fairly well annihilates the rest of the understanding that you have been promoting around this BBS, as it is completely diochomatic.
God can not cause all things, and have foreknowledge which is not causative, especially if foreknowledge precedes cause.
You *say* foreknowledge does not cause things, however, you *say* that God foreknows things, which He then brings to pass, which is identicle to saying foreknowledge causes things to happen.
You need to correct your statement to 'God foreknows all things which will come to pass' - which of course indicates that there are somethings which are not caused by God, but which he foreknows will happen... this fairly well annihilates the rest of the understanding that you have been promoting around this BBS, as it is completely diochomatic.
God can not cause all things, and have foreknowledge which is not causative, especially if foreknowledge precedes cause.
geoff
New member
JoBeth,
Are you really interested in my understanding?
Are you willing to concede that your position is contradictory?
Probably not, but anyway...
God's means of causing is his word.
God is first cause of all things created.
God exhaustively knows all things.
God brings about His will, by virtue of His word which is His power.
God's foreknowledge plays a part in his bringing about of His will, however it is not the reason for, nor the cause of his action.
Are you really interested in my understanding?
Are you willing to concede that your position is contradictory?
Probably not, but anyway...
God's means of causing is his word.
God is first cause of all things created.
God exhaustively knows all things.
God brings about His will, by virtue of His word which is His power.
God's foreknowledge plays a part in his bringing about of His will, however it is not the reason for, nor the cause of his action.
jobeth
Member
Geoff:
Is 46:11 yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
God foreknows what will happen and God ALSO causes what will happen. So God's foreknowledge is NOT the means by which God causes things to happen, whether He has exhaustive foreknowledge or not. Agreed?
No. God is the SOLE cause of all things created.
Yes, including the future. God knows what will happen before it happens.
So you admit that God acts and speaks as well as knows. I agree.
I agree. I say the same thing is true EVEN IF God exhaustively knows the future.
Is 46:11 yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
God foreknows what will happen and God ALSO causes what will happen. So God's foreknowledge is NOT the means by which God causes things to happen, whether He has exhaustive foreknowledge or not. Agreed?
geoff
New member
JoBeth,
I always agree with that which is true.
I will say Hi to my wife for you - do you know her?
Having agreed with you so far means that so far you have not contradicted yourself.
Previously though, you have said:
and
So even though you *say* EDF is not casuative (you said: Foreknowledge is not causitive because Foreknowledge, in itself, has no power to create) God foreknows, and does what he foreknows:
In other words, dispite what you say, you keep affirming that:
1 God is sole cause of all things (you include sin/evil)
2 God has EDF
3 God will do that which he foreknows
4 because God is sole cause of all things (you include sin/evil)
I say (for clarity's sake):
1 God is sole cause of all things CREATED
2 God has EDF
3 All that God foreknows will occur
4 Some things God foreknows will be caused by him
5 Some things God foreknows will be caused by agents other than God
I always agree with that which is true.
I will say Hi to my wife for you - do you know her?
Having agreed with you so far means that so far you have not contradicted yourself.
Previously though, you have said:
and
So even though you *say* EDF is not casuative (you said: Foreknowledge is not causitive because Foreknowledge, in itself, has no power to create) God foreknows, and does what he foreknows:
In other words, dispite what you say, you keep affirming that:
1 God is sole cause of all things (you include sin/evil)
2 God has EDF
3 God will do that which he foreknows
4 because God is sole cause of all things (you include sin/evil)
I say (for clarity's sake):
1 God is sole cause of all things CREATED
2 God has EDF
3 All that God foreknows will occur
4 Some things God foreknows will be caused by him
5 Some things God foreknows will be caused by agents other than God
jobeth
Member
Geoff:
It seems to me that we pretty much agree.
For God to have EDF, then the future must be in someway fixed or certain. Else how could God know it?
In your understanding, who makes the future certain?
If it is God who (as Sole Agent) makes the future certain by (internally and externally) affecting, and thereby determining the course of events, then God can know the future simply by foreknowing what He plans to do in the future.
But if entities other than God (multiple agents) genuinely affect and so cause a real alteration in the course of events, then the events of the future are not certain at all.
It does no good to say that the future God knows is certain but can also be genuinely impacted by other agents. Because if a genuine possibility exists for agents other than God to spontaneously alter future events, then how can God know and tell about them beforehand?
It seems to me that we pretty much agree.
For God to have EDF, then the future must be in someway fixed or certain. Else how could God know it?
In your understanding, who makes the future certain?
If it is God who (as Sole Agent) makes the future certain by (internally and externally) affecting, and thereby determining the course of events, then God can know the future simply by foreknowing what He plans to do in the future.
But if entities other than God (multiple agents) genuinely affect and so cause a real alteration in the course of events, then the events of the future are not certain at all.
It does no good to say that the future God knows is certain but can also be genuinely impacted by other agents. Because if a genuine possibility exists for agents other than God to spontaneously alter future events, then how can God know and tell about them beforehand?
geoff
New member
JoBeth:
The future is certain because God knows it. It is certain because history is HIS - story. It is certain because God has the power to make of it what He Wills.
I believe that human beings actions are all known to God, there is nothing that is unknown.
Now that you seem to be in agreement, are you still holding to this; that God is so in control that even sin is caused by Him?
Because if you are, then you are still in contradiction with yourself and only giving lipservice to agreement with me.
The future is certain because God knows it. It is certain because history is HIS - story. It is certain because God has the power to make of it what He Wills.
I believe that human beings actions are all known to God, there is nothing that is unknown.
Now that you seem to be in agreement, are you still holding to this; that God is so in control that even sin is caused by Him?
Because if you are, then you are still in contradiction with yourself and only giving lipservice to agreement with me.
jobeth
Member
Geoff:
If, by "sin", you mean "disobedience to God", then no, that never happens. How can we disobey an Omnicausal God?
If, by "sin", you mean "unbelief" and "disobeying God's laws", then yes that does happen and yes, God is the ONE who causes or allows that to happen. Can anything happen against His will or without His consent?
I agree. Isn't God able to make anything happen that He wants to happen?
Of course, God cannot sin.
If, by "sin", you mean "disobedience to God", then no, that never happens. How can we disobey an Omnicausal God?
If, by "sin", you mean "unbelief" and "disobeying God's laws", then yes that does happen and yes, God is the ONE who causes or allows that to happen. Can anything happen against His will or without His consent?
geoff
New member
yes, He can.
Quite easily, you explain how right here:
Disobedience to God, and disobeying God's laws are one and the same thing. The first Law that was broken was "do not eat from that tree".
God does NOT cause people to Sin, people CHOOSE to Sin. Sin happens AGAINST the will of God, however that is not to say He has not done something about it. It remains because he ALLOWS it, He does not, and can not cause it.
Of course, there is no point trying to convince you of this one simple thing, as you have your blinkers firmly in place.
geoff
New member
JoBeth,
I think the answer to that is fairly obvious dont you...
Cause indicates culpability. If God causes people to do evil, then he is guilty of Evil.
God allows evil because we have chosen it, and to 'force' us to 'be good' would damage what it means to be his representatives on earth. In fact, even saying 'God allows evil' is not correct. He doesnt allow it. It has already been judged, and all those who are still SINners in the end, will be destroyed. Which is fitting punishment for something God does not allow.
I think the answer to that is fairly obvious dont you...
Cause indicates culpability. If God causes people to do evil, then he is guilty of Evil.
God allows evil because we have chosen it, and to 'force' us to 'be good' would damage what it means to be his representatives on earth. In fact, even saying 'God allows evil' is not correct. He doesnt allow it. It has already been judged, and all those who are still SINners in the end, will be destroyed. Which is fitting punishment for something God does not allow.