ARCHIVE - geoff's colossal contradiction (subtitled) HIS CONVERSION TO OPEN THEISM!

[1Way]

2 points

1 - Hebrews 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it [is] impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before [us].

2 - (From geoff's Post dated 09-21-2001 09:05 PM) Quote:

The Scripture says what Dwayne?

Lets see:
With man, it is impossible, with God, nothing is impossible.

However, it is true, God can not do the illogical. Exhaustive foreknowledge is not illiogical, EVEN humans have partial foreknowledge.

End quote.

1 - God's word attributes lying as an impossibility for God.

2 - geoff's word says that God "can not do" the illogical.

And everyone knows what "can not do" basically means.

can not do = it is not possible to do = impossible to do

 

[jobeth]

Geoff:
I'm still confused.
God doesn't cause it to happen by knowing it will happen.
God causes it to happen by making it happen.

The means God uses to create is His Power, not His Knowledge.

I know how to cook, but I don't cook using "Mind-Power". I cook by actually cooking.

 

[geoff]

Dwayne:

you have just repeated yourself, and you still dont make any sense... what has God's lying or not lying got to do with this discussion?

It seems to me it has nothing to do with it, and I would appreciate it if you either explained what on earth you are on about, or moved right along.

(note: I have never said God can lie...)

JoBeth:

Saying that God knows what will happen because he will make it happen is not alot different to saying foreknowledge is causative. In fact, its 2 different ways of saying the same thing.

It seems you are holding them as seperate in your mind, probably because you accept that foreknowledge is not causuative. However, because of your particular theological bent, you must also conclude that God causes all things (including sin, as you have said elsewhere), so you end up contradicting yourself by trying to make two diametrically opposed things one and the same..

 

[1Way]

Pr 27:5 Open rebuke [is] better Than love carefully concealed.

Pr 9:8 Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you; Rebuke a wise [man], and he will love you.

Pr 6:16 These six [things] the LORD hates, Yes, seven [are] an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Pr 28:25 He who is of a proud heart stirs up strife, But he who trusts in the LORD will be prospered.

 

[geoff]

Still waiting for some sense here...

 

[jobeth]

Geoff:
So am I.

Whatever do you mean by saying that "God knows what will happen because he will make it happen is not alot different to saying foreknowledge is causative. In fact, its 2 different ways of saying the same thing. "?

I don't get it. Please explain how they are the same thing.

 

[geoff]

JoBeth,

its so simple, I wonder why you can not see it...

let me try one last time:

Saying God foreknows because he makes it happen is absolutely no different to saying foreknowledge is causuative...

Causuative means 'causal' or more simply 'made to happen'.

 

[jobeth]

Geoff:

It just doesn't seem that way to me.

I know I'm going to cook dinner. But I have not yet done so. Dinner is not cooked unless and until I actually get in the kitchen and cook it, EVEN THOUGH I know ahead of time that I will cook dinner.

I foreknow that dinner will be cooked AND YET it is not cooked until I cook it.

In the same way, God foreknows what will happen AND YET it will not happen until God makes it happen.

So they are clearly not the same thing, since one (foreknowlege of the thing or event) preceeds the other (the creation of the thing or event).

Am I missing something?

 

[geoff]

yes

 

[jobeth]

Geoff:
Really? Well please show me how they can be the same thing if one preceeds the other?

 

[geoff]

JoBeth:

This is why you contradict yourself:

If you did not know that you would cook dinner, then you would not cook dinner, because your knowing dinner then causes you to cook dinner, foreknowedge must be (in your view) causal.

It doesnt matter that knowing precedes actions, in your case, it is the knowing that CAUSES the action, which of course, is false.

 

[jobeth]

Geoff:

because your knowing dinner then causes you to cook dinner,foreknowedge must be (in your view) causal.

Ah. I see what you mean.

Because I know what to cook for dinner and I know how to cook it, I have no choice but to cook dinner. My knowledge causes me to cook.
Right?

 

[1Way]

no1 can win w/U 2

no1 can win w/U 2

Jobeth - As I said before and you love to neglect. I said the following:

geoff does make a good point, as long as we grant that thought proceeds action, then God's forethought proceeds Him doing it.

His foreknowledge effectively causes the future via His actions. Or do you say that God acts without forethought and reason?

Do you say that God acts without forethought and reason?

TTT

 

[geoff]

Jobeth,

No, what you indicated was that BECAUSE you KNOW that you are going to cook dinner, you go and cook it.

Therefore, in your view, because something is known... it is done, foreknowledge is therefore casuative.

 

[TULIP-5SOLAS]

Ya Hooey

Ya Hooey

Hey gang,

I figure at least one true-blue Calvinist should be blabbing on this thread. I haven't read all the previous posts and I don't want to intrude, but back when y'all were referencing the verse that says what is impossible with man is possible with God, I think it's good to keep in mind that the subject was spiritual re-birth or being 'born again'. Like Jeff though, I believe God can do anything that isn't 'logically' impossible. People can't do the logically impossible either, of course, but neither can they do everything that is possible, while God can. That may seem like a no-brainer, but it seemed that it was being lost in the shuffle.

 

[geoff]

Tulip,

Thanks dude, that was a really clear explanation of what I was trying to say...

 

[jobeth]

1way
You asked: "Do you say that God acts without forethought and reason?"
Of course not. (Did you really need an answer to that question?)

Geoff
You said: "...foreknowledge is therefore causative."
How can that be?
If all you are trying to ascertain is whether I claim that God CAUSES everything, then the answer is "yes" - God is the Sole Creator of All Reality and the Sole Agent of All Events.
The fact that God knows everything that will happen in the future is the RESULT of His Absolute Sovereign control, not the CAUSE.

EDF is neither the agent nor the catalyst of God's power, rather EDF is the PRODUCT of God's sovereignty.

I will admit that when we claim that God certainly knows everything that will happen before it actually happens, we are indeed inferring that He controls everything. Else how could He know it for certain?

 

[geoff]

JoBeth,

all you are doing is reaffirming that you think God's foreknowledge is casuative.

 

[1Way]

Jobeth - Plug in the context and you have a God who's rationality proceeds His actions, meaning that in the order of causation, God's rationality is first, then comes His action. Therefore God's rationality causes His actions which causes everything else. Hence God's rationality is causative. If you can't piece all that together, which is really just following the discussion, then,,, nice knowing ya, got more relevant and coherent discussions to attend to.

TTT

 

[jobeth]

1way:
I agree that God only acts thoughtfully and rationally and never acts foolish or petty. God is too wise to choose to act foolishly. But that doesn't mean He couldn't. I suppose God could do something completely spontaneous and random if He wanted to. Not that He would, but He could. What do you think?

Geoff:
I just don't want to confuse people by saying that God creates by means of His foreknowledge. That is not the case.

Foreknowledge is not causitive because Foreknowledge, in itself, has no power to create. You've said so yourself. And I agreed with you.

Rather, God has Foreknowledge by means of His being in Absolute Control of Everything. And not the other way around.