"And you are complete in him" (Jesus Christ) Colossians 2:10

[marhig]

What an awesome question!

Seriously, that is an outstanding question. It is the only logical question you could have asked.

No!, Paul did not preach the same gospel that Jesus taught or that the Twelve taught.

If he had, there would have been no need for him to exist as an apostle to begin with. Paul did not receive, what he repeatedly refers to as "my gospel", from man nor was he taught it. It was given to him directly from the risen Christ by revelation. This what Galatians (likely Paul's first epistle) is about...

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),

11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. 20 (Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.)

2:1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.

6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. ​

Now, read that through and notice something important. Something that goes back even to what I've been saying about proof-texts.

Notice that all of the "proof-texts" for following the law are in books written by, too, about and for Jews (i.e. Kingdom believers), while all the "proof-texts" for liberty are in the Pauline epistles.

Think this is the only doctrinal debate that falls along those lines? If so, you'd be mistaken.

Do you have to be baptized to be saved?
Do you have to observe the Sabbath?
Can you lose your salvation?
Are works necessary for salvation?
Should believers speak in tongues?
Should believers expect miracles and healing to happen today?
Is there a pre-tribulation rapture?
Should believers avoid certain foods?

Etc. etc. etc.

All of these and more have the same solution in common. There's a list as long as your arm of major doctrinal debates that are resolved by understanding one single thing. Paul's gospel is NOT that same as that taught by Jesus during His Earthly ministry and subsequently by the Twelve Apostles. Paul is the apostle to the Body of Christ and to NO ONE else, while the Twelve ministered to the Circumcision (i.e. Kingdom Gospel believers).

This will sound like bragging or like arrogance. I assure you that it is nothing of the sort. What you've just read, if your actually read it, is almost certainly the single most important doctrinal thing you've ever read since becoming a Christian. It is the key to understanding the New Testament. It's that important.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Firstly, i absolutely know that Paul got the gospel and revelation from Christ, I can hear Christ in him. The point I'm making is that. Jesus preached one gospel not 2, he doesn't change, and the gospel that he revealed to Paul is the same gospel that he preached. Paul goes into detail because there are many letters from him, but it's the same gospel, there isn't 2 gospels only one that is to be spread around world to us all. God isn't the author of confusion. There is one God, one Christ, and one gospel.

There is one gospel and Peter preached it to the Jews and Paul to the gentiles. The difference is that Paul is telling the gentiles that they don't need to be circumcised of the flesh, because true circumcision is of the heart. What's the point in being circumcised of the flesh if your heart isn't clean? Having a clean heart is far more important God. He is saying that they don't need to learn the laws, because through faith by the spirit, God will put his laws in their mind and in their hearts. So will be led to obey God through the spirit.

Jesus himself said in John 14

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

He said that the holy ghost will teach you all things, if we have the spirit, he will be teaching us and guiding us to obey God.

It says in verse 6 (above) that God shows no favouritism in man, ....so God doesn't change for anybody and nor does Christ. So the gospel that is given is the same gospel given to all. God is no respecter of persons.

So, Paul's gospel is for the body of Christ and the twelve preach Jesus' gospel for the circumcision? Are you saying that the gospel of Christ isn't for us who are in the body of Christ, but we should only listen to Paul's gospel?

There is only one gospel, and it's all the gospel of Christ, and he was in all his apostles teaching the people. As Jesus said, go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

He didn't say, just preach it to the Jews. But every every person in the whole world should hear the one gospel.

 

[beameup]

Firstly, i absolutely know that Paul got the gospel and revelation from Christ, I can hear Christ in him. The point I'm making is that. Jesus preached one gospel not 2, he doesn't change, and the gospel that he revealed to Paul is the same gospel that he preached. Paul goes into detail because there are many letters from him, but it's the same gospel, there isn't 2 gospels only one that is to be spread around world to us all. God isn't the author of confusion. There is one God, one Christ, and one gospel.

Point us to some places where Paul teaches the Gospel of the Kingdom (ie: Millennial Kingdom).

crickets chirping

 

[marhig]

Point us to some places where Paul teaches the Gospel of the Kingdom (ie: Millennial Kingdom).

Do you truly believe that Jesus would teach 2 gospels, you show me where Jesus said that? And so, if you are in the body of Christ, do you only believe Paul's gospel and not Jesus' which according to some, is only for the Jews?

Jesus told his apostles to preach one gospel to the world, not 2. And I see Paul's gospel as a part of the gospel of Christ.

 

[marhig]

This is a serious and genuine question, I'm not being sarcastic, but I am confused and I'm not quite understanding the way some if you believe.

So, are some of you saying, that because the gospel of Jesus through the 12 apostles is for the circumcision only (Jews) and Paul's gospel is for the body of Christ, so are are you saying that those who are in the body of Christ don't need to believe the four gospels of Matthew, mark, Luke and John, the book of the acts, the book of James. The book of Jude, the books of Peter the epistles of John, and the book of revelation. Seeing as they are all books that come from Jesus and the gospel through the 12 apostles for the circumcision? Are these only for the Jews, and just the books of Paul are for the church of Christ?

Because I take in all the books of the new testament, and see I them all belonging to the gospel of Christ, I take it all to myself, I have complete faith in God and believe that God has got in the Bible exactly the way he wants it, and all of the new testament is for all of us

 

[beameup]

Do you truly believe that Jesus would teach 2 gospels, you show me where Jesus said that? And so, if you are in the body of Christ, do you only believe Paul's gospel and not Jesus' which according to some, is only for the Jews?

Jesus told his apostles to preach one gospel to the world, not 2. And I see Paul's gospel as a part of the gospel of Christ.

OK, present to us the "gospel" using only the 3 synoptic gospels...

 

[marhig]

OK, present to us the "gospel" using only the 3 synoptic gospels...

Why would I do that. When I believe that all teachings in the new testament belongs to the gospel of Christ. It's people like you who are separating it.

 

[beameup]

Why would I do that. When I believe that all teachings in the new testament belongs to the gospel of Christ. It's people like you who are separating it.

Obfuscation

Paul: "my gospel" - Romans 2:16
Paul: "my gospel" - Romans 16:25
Paul: "my gospel" - 2 Timothy 2:8
Paul: "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." -- Galatians 1:11-12
The risen and glorified Jesus Christ revealed "new information" directly to Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.

 

[marhig]

Obfuscation

Paul: "my gospel" - Romans 2:16
Paul: "my gospel" - Romans 16:25
Paul: "my gospel" - 2 Timothy 2:8
Paul: "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." -- Galatians 1:11-12
The risen and glorified Jesus Christ revealed "new information" directly to Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles.

And what Paul preached is integrated into the gospel of Christ.

So what are you saying, do you believe that those who were once gentiles should only believe the gospel of Paul? Why are you separating the gospel of Christ.

Why are you talking about my gospel? he didn't mean it was his gospel but the gospel of Christ that he was preaching.

If Paul received the gospel through Christ then it's all one gospel.

 

[beameup]

And what Paul preached is integrated into the gospel of Christ.

So what are you saying, do you believe that those who were once gentiles should only believe the gospel of Paul? Why are you separating the gospel of Christ.

Why are you talking about my gospel? he didn't mean it was his gospel but the gospel of Christ that he was preaching.

If Paul received the gospel through Christ then it's all one gospel.

If "the Gospel" had been given by Jesus Christ, then there would have been no need for Saul to become Paul and no need for Paul's writings.
Paul claimed that he had a "new revelation" that was a "mystery" which had been totally hidden until it was revealed to Paul.
So, you must call Paul a Liar or Jesus Christ as Incapable of delivering the "full" Gospel during his earthly ministry.

 

[marhig]

If "the Gospel" had been given by Jesus Christ, then there would have been no need for Saul to become Paul and no need for Paul's writings.
Paul claimed that he had a "new revelation" that was a "mystery" which had been totally hidden until it was revealed to Paul.
So, you must call Paul a Liar or Jesus Christ as Incapable of delivering the "full" Gospel during his earthly ministry.

I don't see Paul's gospel as a different, just that he's teaching to to the gentiles who don't know the laws and teaching them that through faith, Christ by the spirit will teach them all things concerning the ways of God, Peter is preaching to the Jews who know the law but they are the same gospel, both preaching the truth, both bringing the word of God to others, both bringing them to Christ and both teaching that we are to repent, obey and have faith in the living God.

Both are teaching for us to turn to Christ for us to have our hearts cleansed by the spirit and both are teaching that Christ is the way and only way to the living God he is the truth and the life.

One God, one Christ, one gospel and all those who belong Christ are at one with Christ and the father.

 

[jamie]

The Father wanted the gospel of the kingdom to go first to his firstborn, to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles. (Romans 1:16)

The Twelve were working class Judeans who lived and worked in Judea. Paul grew up in a large Gentile city but became a Jewish rabbi and saw his mission in life as converting Gentiles to his religion by whatever terroristic means possible. Jesus met with him and asked him to stop.

And he did.

 

[Clete]

There is only one gospel, and it's all the gospel of Christ, and he was in all his apostles teaching the people. As Jesus said, go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

He didn't say, just preach it to the Jews. But every every person in the whole world should hear the one gospel.

You ignored almost my entire post so I feel free to do the same to yours. I'll pare it down to something more focused...


You make reference here to the Great Commission. My question to you is two fold...

Why did the Twelve Apostles that Jesus already had agree to minister only to the Circumcision (i.e. Israel) in opposition to the Great Commission?

Why was Paul ever even made an Apostle to begin with - Where was the need for a thirteenth Apostle?


By the way, when a person spends the time to make a substantive argument, a response that amounts to pounding your fists on the table and repeating over and over again, "There is only one gospel", doesn't count as a rebuttal and in fact is a rather insulting waste of our time. If you want to have a substantive discussion/debate, I'm all for it but you're going to have to respond to my arguments with something more substantive than "You're wrong!, You're wrong! You're wrong!"

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[jamie]

Why was Paul ever even made an Apostle to begin with - Where was the need for a thirteenth Apostle?

There are thirteen tribes.

 

[SabathMoon]

The point is that the event was forged into the text of the NT to enhance the extraordinary in terms of Replacement Theology.

The point is that there is no proof of authorship date for the talmud. There are plenty of hints the NT is pre-temple fall all the way.

 

[marhig]

You ignored almost my entire post so I feel free to do the same to yours. I'll pare it down to something more focused...


You make reference here to the Great Commission. My question to you is two fold...

Why did the Twelve Apostles that Jesus already had agree to minister only to the Circumcision (i.e. Israel) in opposition to the Great Commission?

Why was Paul ever even made an Apostle to begin with - Where was the need for a thirteenth Apostle?


By the way, when a person spends the time to make a substantive argument, a response that amounts to pounding your fists on the table and repeating over and over again, "There is only one gospel", doesn't count as a rebuttal and in fact is a rather insulting waste of our time. If you want to have a substantive discussion/debate, I'm all for it but you're going to have to respond to my arguments with something more substantive than "You're wrong!, You're wrong! You're wrong!"

Resting in Him,
Clete

If you knew me, you'd know that I'm not a "pounding my fists on the table" type of person. I'm only talking with you.

You said you were ignoring my post and then you ask me a question from it?

Anyway, the twelve were sent to preach to the the Jews at first, but then once they received the holy spirit they were to preach to everyone.

Acts 1

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?*And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.*But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth


Now, I'll pare my other post down to something more focused. Did Jesus ever say there were 2 gospels?

 

[Clete]

There are thirteen tribes.

I take it that you think the book of Revelation is not a valid portion of the scripture then.

 

[Clete]

If you knew me, you'd know that I'm not a "pounding my fists on the table" type of person. I'm only talking with you.

Well, I didn't mean that litterally. I was referring to the way you just kept repeating, "There's only one gospel." over and over as though that would magically make my biblical argument to the contrary go away. It's seems similar to when the pastor has in his sermon notes "Point here is weak - pound pulpit!".

You said you were ignoring my post and then you ask me a question from it?

I said I was ignoring (i.e. not responding to) MOST of your post just as you had ignored most of mine.

Anyway, the twelve were sent to preach to the the Jews at first, but then once they received the holy spirit they were to preach to everyone.
Acts 1

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?*And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.*But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth

Are you just making this up as you go, or what?

First of all, there isn't any such stipulation in the Great Commission and secondly, the Holy Spirit was given a whole fifty days after the resurrection. What are you suggesting, that the Twelve preached to Israel for only seven weeks?

Further, Paul didn't go to the twelve for at least three years (Gal. 1) and it was fourteen years before the Twelve agreed to limit their ministry to the Circumcision (Gal. 2). WAY WAY after the Holy Spirit was given to all twelve Apostles.

Now, I'll pare my other post down to something more focused. Did Jesus ever say there were 2 gospels?

He (Jesus) preached the Gospel of the Kingdom while on Earth (notice the Apostle's expectation of a Kingdom in the verses you quoted) and then, after denying Israel their Kingdom and cutting them off, He (Jesus) gave the Gospel of Grace to Paul via direct revelation. So whether we have a record of Him saying, "There are two gospels" or not is irrelevant. He taught two and so there are two. We also have no record of Jesus ever uttering the word "grace" during His Earthly ministry.

The fact that Jesus gave Paul the Gospel of Grace by direct revelation brings up the second of my questions. It seems we are going to be having to do this one single point at a time. :yawn:

Why Paul? If the Twelve followed the Great Commission as you suggest then where is the need for a thirteenth Apostle? Why didn't God just use the Twelve He already had?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[marhig]

Well, I didn't mean that litterally. I was referring to the way you just kept repeating, "There's only one gospel." over and over as though that would magically make my biblical argument to the contrary go away. It's seems similar to when the pastor has in his sermon notes "Point here is weak - pound pulpit!".


I said I was ignoring (i.e. not responding to) MOST of your post just as you had ignored most of mine.


Are you just making this up as you go, or what?

First of all, there isn't any such stipulation in the Great Commission and secondly, the Holy Spirit was given a whole fifty days after the resurrection. What are you suggesting, that the Twelve preached to Israel for only seven weeks?

Further, Paul didn't go to the twelve for at least three years (Gal. 1) and it was fourteen years before the Twelve agreed to limit their ministry to the Circumcision. WAY WAY after the Holy Spirit was given to all twelve Apostles.


He preached the Gospel of the Kingdom while on Earth (notice the Apostle's expectation of a Kingdom in the verses you quoted) and then, after denying Israel their Kingdom and cutting them off, He gave the Gospel of Grace to Paul via direct revelation.

Which, by the way, bring up the second of my questions that you managed to ignore. Do we really have to do this one sentence at a time?

Why Paul? If the Twelve followed the Great Commission as you suggest then where the need for a thirteenth Apostle? Why didn't God just use the Twelve He already had?

Gospel of grace? There is only the gospel of Christ

Paul was chosen because God needs his people in every generation.

Ephesians 4

Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

Well, I didn't mean that litterally. I was referring to the way you just kept repeating, "There's only one gospel." over and over as though that would magically make my biblical argument to the contrary go away. It's seems similar to when the pastor has in his sermon notes "Point here is weak - pound pulpit!".


I said I was ignoring (i.e. not responding to) MOST of your post just as you had ignored most of mine.


Are you just making this up as you go, or what?

First of all, there isn't any such stipulation in the Great Commission and secondly, the Holy Spirit was given a whole fifty days after the resurrection. What are you suggesting, that the Twelve preached to Israel for only seven weeks?

Further, Paul didn't go to the twelve for at least three years (Gal. 1) and it was fourteen years before the Twelve agreed to limit their ministry to the Circumcision. WAY WAY after the Holy Spirit was given to all twelve Apostles.


He preached the Gospel of the Kingdom while on Earth (notice the Apostle's expectation of a Kingdom in the verses you quoted) and then, after denying Israel their Kingdom and cutting them off, He gave the Gospel of Grace to Paul via direct revelation.

Which, by the way, bring up the second of my questions that you managed to ignore. Do we really have to do this one sentence at a time?

Why Paul? If the Twelve followed the Great Commission as you suggest then where the need for a thirteenth Apostle? Why didn't God just use the Twelve He already had?

 

[jamie]

I take it that you think the book of Revelation is not a valid portion of the scripture then.

I take it that you think the book of Genesis is not a valid portion of the scripture then.

 

[jamie]

Why Paul? If the Twelve followed the Great Commission as you suggest then where is the need for a thirteenth Apostle? Why didn't God just use the Twelve He already had?

There are thirteen tribes and Paul was not inferior to any of the Twelve.