An open challenge to all closed theists

[1Way]

Lee - So you mean it can mean A, and it ALSO can mean “if X then A”, the conclusion version means it can mean A or A. On one hand you say that it can not mean two different things, but in reality you mean it can mean two different things, non-A or if X then A. It can mean “without a condition”, and it can mean “with a condition”, which is A and non-A just as I said, and just as you incongruently disagreed. You can not have reason with unreasonable. You can not have logic with illogic. You can not have truth with false. You can not have God as the authority when you know better than God.

This is the final analysis.

God’s word says

He did not bring the disaster that He said He would bring, and He did not do it. The prophesy was said to be “a national disaster” which was correlated with God’s anger and intent of doing harm.

Yet despite these bible facts, the closed theist

thinks he knows better than God, saying no God, you did do what you were going to do, you did not change at all, it was not a national disaster you planned, it was their repentance.

Closed theism is falsification against God’s word, voiding it of meaning and replacing it with nothing but contrary manmade ideas.

And not one single closed theist has the decency to explain what the text of Jonah 3:10 subsection part B means. Because the fact is as I claim, they actually void it of meaning and replace it with nothing.

 

[Z Man]

Originally posted by LightSon

I believe it is possible for 2 mature, honest men of God to disagree, even on doctrinal matters. Disagreement may indicate an incorrect position or line of reasoning, but it doesn't require that one of them is lying.

My sense is that the Lord would have us to be respectful and gracious towards each other.

The key is to have two mature, honest men of God. I only see one in this debate...

 

[1Way]

I think that what you just said is true. I also think it is false, it can be both. –- A Lee-ism

 

[smaller]

Jonah 3:10/B eh? B, hmmmm.......

How would that text be understood next to this text?

John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

 

[1Way]

It should not be understood in a smallerish way. That is, all of God’s word should be understood in a “complementary” way, not a “contradictory” way (i.e. it's A and non-A, both!).

God repents from what He said and thought He was going to do. So it is elementary that God does not know the entire future exhaustively. And God is the Lord over salvation, He is our salvation, and as such, His power and authority is second to none.

 

[smaller]

Well perhaps you would like to make the POSITION that John 17:2 is NOT TRUE????

After all, IF power over all flesh was given to JESUS, then your understanding that the NINEVITES "saved themselves" would certainly be in jeopardy eh?

 

[Yorzhik]

Oh, He repented/relented/showed mercy to the Ninevites alright. But it wasn't something He had not orginally planned. It didn't surprise Him that the Ninevites repented...

So planned changes are not real changes?

1Way: That Rabbi, who I don't remember the name of, actually turns out (as you said in a later post) to follow a rather common understanding in the Jewish religion. It is interesting that for over 4000 years believers in the true God did not believe that God could not change, and it has been less than 2000 years that we've begun to believe this. I guess people that spoke directly to God were stupid.

 

[1Way]

smaller - Being in charge and the most powerful being ever, does not negate any and all authority and power given to the church, the family and the individual.

For example, the bible says that God will judge the world, but it also says that the saints will judge the world and the angels. We are not God, but we will judge come judgment day. They are both true given the proper understanding how each teaching implies something slightly different than the other.

 

[1Way]

Yorzhik – LOL, ya, somehow Moses and Abraham and Noah and Jonah and David, and all the OT patriarchs must have flunked out on Platonic immutability 101. But the open view ideas are the common assumption instead. Gee, it only took Calvin about 5500 years to popularize closed theism.

Thanks for the update. The reformation was only since the early 1500’s which was the major event that put Augustinian theology on the map, but St Augustine lived way back in 354-430, and there are very strong philosophical ties from him to Plato and Aristole. A significant aspect of the reformation was not Calvinistic, the Anabaptists (Zwingly) were not so inclined as was Luther (1483-1546) and then John Calvin (1509-1564). So it basically took about 1500 years after Christ to finally arrive at formalized Calvinism, so if I have al my figures right, that was about 500 years ago.

So it may be closer to 5500 years of tradition of accepting that God can and does change, compared to about 500 years of formalized acceptance of this Greek view saying that god can not change in any way.

 

[smaller]

smaller - Being in charge and the most powerful being ever, does not negate any and all authority and power given to the church, the family and the individual.

So POWER has been granted unto YOU over ALL FLESH??? Is this what you are saying 1Way???

Or perhaps you are making the "case" that even though Jesus was conveyed POWER over ALL FLESH that He fails to exercise it???

For example, the bible says that God will judge the world, but it also says that the saints will judge the world and the angels. We are not God, but we will judge come judgment day. They are both true given the proper understanding how each teaching implies something slightly different than the other.

I happen to believe this as well and am interested in measuring how God measures and not how I would measure.

So my original observation stands. Jesus was granted power over ALL FLESH. Does this effect your view of how the flesh of Ninevites reacted...perhaps when enhanced by this???:

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

or

2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Perhaps your judgment of repentance should turn upwards as well???

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Yorzhik]

Yorzhik – LOL, ya, somehow Moses and Abraham and Noah and Jonah and David, and all the OT patriarchs must have flunked out on Platonic immutability 101. But the open view ideas are the common assumption instead. Gee, it only took Calvin about 5500 years to popularize closed theism.

Thanks for the update. The reformation was only since the early 1500’s which was the major event that put Augustinian theology on the map, but St Augustine lived way back in 354-430, and there are very strong philosophical ties from him to Plato and Aristole. A significant aspect of the reformation was not Calvinistic, the Anabaptists (Zwingly) were not so inclined as was Luther (1483-1546) and then John Calvin (1509-1564). So it basically took about 1500 years after Christ to finally arrive at formalized Calvinism, so if I have al my figures right, that was about 500 years ago.

So it may be closer to 5500 years of tradition of accepting that God can and does change, compared to about 500 years of formalized acceptance of this Greek view saying that god can not change in any way.

Wow! Thanks for the info.

 

[1Way]

Yorzhik, your very welcome, your observation makes a very powerful point as it is. If you can get a copy of this book, the Openness of God (I think I may have an extra copy around here somewhere I would be happy to give you if I ever get my life in order and finally get together), chapter two by John Sanders (just 40 pages) is outstanding as a reference for the rabbit trail from modern times all the way back to Plato and how the Pagan Greeks polluted the Christian mindset. St. Augustine would NOT become a Christian even because the bible foolishly contradicted Platonic thought on the immutability of God.

Bob Hill has some excellent writings on that issue that used to be posted on this website (maybe still is), or at Bob’s website (Biblical answers . com, no spaces). Augustine did not take a biblical approach to the bible, he took a secular approach and it was not until he thought that he nullified all the divine mutability passages that he finally gave in and became a Christian. In effect, he worshiped Plato more than he trusted God. It’s a very interesting issue.

 

[1Way]

Smaller

Power over all flesh
No, some power has been given to God’s creation from the being who has power over everthing.

It’s not that He does "or does not" exercise His power that He has, it’s the kind of power He has and how He decides to use it or delagate it even. God can destroy the entire universe and start all over if He wanted to. I am saying that God is pleased to authentically share power and love and creativity with created beings. It’s like I said about having all authority to judge everything, yet at the same time, God delegates authority for the saints to judge, each teaching complements the other, they do not contradict each other, and I see that you are most comfortable with taking the contradictory approach. You are free to presume so much false things, but you are wrong none the less.

The goodness of God leads to repentance, every good gift comes from God, and all repentance away from evil is a good thing, so every time someone repents God is ultimately behind it, but, that does not mean God controlled it to happen, it does not necessarily mean God forced it to happen, it is a fact that all good things come from God, repentance is good, so if they repent, God is behind it, and if they do not repent, God is also behind it because fundamentally they do not repent because they do not accept God and His will for their lives.

 

[OMEGA]

1way or another

1way or another

-1way said to Smaller:

The goodness of God leads to repentance, every good gift comes from God, and all repentance away from evil is a good thing, so every time someone repents God is ultimately behind it,

1. God is Not necessarily behind a good deed.

It is a Free Will Choice.
----------------------------------------------------

but, that does not mean God controlled it to happen, it does not necessarily mean God forced it to happen, it is a fact that all good things come from God,

2. Good things like Food , Sunshine, Blessings etc.

come from God.

NOT a persons personal choice to do a good deed.
------------------------------------------------------

repentance is God, so if they repent, God is behind it, and if they do not repent, God is also behind it

3. God changes the Human Carnal Mind and opens it to Understanding of the Awareness of God and thus Repentance.
-------------------------------------------------------

4. God allows Satan to keep people in the Dark through Sin

and thus prevent them from Repenting.

5. The Process of coming to God is SEEing the Preacher,

HEARing the Preacher and having God open their Understanding

and Conversion and Healing of their Wounded Spirit by God.

Matthew 13:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
------------------------------------------------------

because fundamentally they do not repent because they do not accept God and His will for their lives.

They do not Accept God's will because their Spirits are Not

in tune with God's Spirit.
--------------------------------------------------------

The Holy spirit works with their Minds and later is put into

their Minds to Cleanse them and make them ready for the

Positions of Authority in God's Kingdom.:think:

 

[1Way]

Omega – I didn’t say that God violates free will in being behind a good deed, like supporting, or blessing, or first promoting it for example. God is the standard of all righteousness and goodness, so it is by God’s character and ways that we ultimately imitate whenever we do anything good.

You argued for the case of free will, and I agree, we choose, God is a great role model and leads us to do good things, not otherwise.

So I didn’t mean to imply that God being behind a good thing like repentance, meant He choose it to happen over man’s free will, actually, my overall point was arguing against that viewpoint. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.

 

[smaller]

Greetings 1Way

Power over all flesh
No, some power has been given to God’s creation from the being who has power over everthing.

We can observe this from several different ways 1Way. For example James tells us that "every" good thing comes from God. That's "power." We can observe that "all things" have been given to the Son by the Father and that the Son loses nothing. That's power.

Said power applied to the Ninevites as it does to "everything" today. God has purposes with everything in His creation. Now you know I do not believe in predestination of people to hell so this is not even on the table....

The only point is that God is in control down to the last detail and we as believers (supposedly) should have no fear in this nor should we have to "excuse" Him.

It’s not that He does "or does not" exercise His power that He has, it’s the kind of power He has and how He decides to use it or delagate it even.

And this has been a classic arguement with you. It is unlikely that "God's" will is going to be dissected by you. Whatever it is, it just IS, just as He IS.

God can destroy the entire universe and start all over if He wanted to.

And so where "we" can both read that heaven and earth will melt away and He will create a new heaven and a new earth and that all things are become new YOU and the even the Calvies simply DO NOT BELIEVE yet alone understand but will rush in with your own respective subjective LIMITATIONS.

I am saying that God is pleased to authentically share power and love and creativity with created beings.

The Big IF here 1way is IF it is in accordance with His Will. Now WHAT might that be??? Resistance of HIS WILL is ALSO IN HIS WILL. He is a Master Chess Player eh?

It’s like I said about having all authority to judge everything, yet at the same time, God delegates authority for the saints to judge, each teaching complements the other, they do not contradict each other, and I see that you are most comfortable with taking the contradictory approach.

Certainly I would take the path of understanding my own subjectivity in these matters and seek to meet His Objectivity. It is a mistake to limit God.

You are free to presume so much false things, but you are wrong none the less.

Now you know I LOVE Jesus Christ. I understand and agree that He is God and Lord. He is my Saviour. I place no limits upon Him. I do not deny His Words.

What I am saying is that there is MORE to God than what you limit Him to. Much more. When a man falls into the morass of his own selective subjectivity it is a sad thing. God opens the hearts and minds TO LOVE, not to hate and to condemn and to fall into a mini microscopic subjectivity that is only good for you and a couple of others maybe. The latter is a very sad state that will end in bitterness for you. This may be God's intent for you as it is with many. I see these things as victory for the lesser or the enemy and as such I try to put out a hand. It is my obligation.

The goodness of God leads to repentance, every good gift comes from God, and all repentance away from evil is a good thing, so every time someone repents God is ultimately behind it, but, that does not mean God controlled it to happen, it does not necessarily mean God forced it to happen, it is a fact that all good things come from God, repentance is good, so if they repent, God is behind it, and if they do not repent, God is also behind it because fundamentally they do not repent because they do not accept God and His will for their lives.

God means ALL THINGS to happen as ALL THINGS were made for His Pleasure.

There are a multitude of things in this wicked and evil generation that will result in judgment and eradication. This too pleases God. Some of these things of judgment and eradication will be in the "believers."

Can you believe it? We almost got through a couple of posts without wild accusations. Congrats.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[OMEGA]

1Wayoranother said :

So I didn’t mean to imply that God being behind a good thing like repentance, meant He choose it to happen over man’s free will, actually, my overall point was arguing against that viewpoint. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify.
----------------------
God , the Father Draws a man first before that man can come to

Repentance.

And how does God do that ; via the Holy Spirit atuning the man's

mind to Draw him closer to God .

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath

sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can

come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

------ And why does God want to Change a Man's Mind to be

like God's Mind via the Holy Spirit. -----------

To Prepare Mankind to Rule over the Angels and

Thus become a God Being like Jesus .


Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with

me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down

with my Father in his throne.

:think: :angel:

 

[1Way]

Omega

• God wants to make us more like Him.
  
  He wants us to become a “God Being like Jesus”.

So are you saying that when we get to heaven the trinity will be wrong, you just count the number of beings who are like Jesus (a God Being), and then say that God is that many in one?

Do you think that all saved people will someday become a God Being?

Or do you think we will certainly remain less than “God”, unlike Jesus who was and still is fully God?

 

[Yorzhik]

1Way, I think you are going where farmers find their feed ends up when you get in a discussion like this with Omega.

 

[1Way]

Yorzhik - Eeeeuuuu

LOL I wondered. I do not know much about him. But his last post was,,, bizarre. You hope for the best, but sometimes cow dung is what you get instead.