Against abortion and against person-hood?

[PureX]

So potential is sufficient?

No, breath, heartbeat, brain activity, past experience and probability have a whole lot to do with it, too.

The mind doesn't spend all of the time dreaming. So what then?

Not being an absolutist, myself, I don't really care about apparent momentary lapses from the conscious self-awareness of human 'personhood'. I don't base my opinion of it on the existence of an occasional aberration. If such became a permanent state, I would say 'personhood' has been irretrievably lost, and it would be time for whomever is then in charge of the remaining body's welfare to determine how to deal with it.

But of course you and glassjester know this already, you just can't admit to knowing it so you continue to ask these silly questions while searching for some way of trying to dismiss the obvious.

 

[Town Heretic]

No, breath, heartbeat, brain activity, past experience and probability have a whole lot to do with it, too.

Why? What makes these signifiers of right?

Not being an absolutist, myself,

If you were truly a relativist you'd have to admit the absolutist could be right, but the absolutist can't be right or everything cannot then be relative. It's an ongoing problem for you.

And you seem to have fairly absolute ideas about certain ways of thinking and beliefs and the people who share them.

I don't really care about apparent momentary lapses from the conscious self-awareness of human 'personhood'.

That's one way of avoiding the consequence of an argument, or admitting that consciousness then isn't the arbiter of our right and person.

I don't base my opinion of it on the existence of an occasional aberration.

It's a regularly occurring phenomenon, one experienced universally and each time a person sleeps.

If such became a permanent state, I would say 'personhood' has been irretrievably lost

If the permanent state makes it irretrievably lost then it must be temporarily lost during the periods where the state is present, but not irretrievable. So we phase in and out of right and meaningful being? That's flimsy thing (either).

, and it would be time for whomever is then in charge of the remaining body's welfare to determine how to deal with it.

So every day we surrender our rights subject to proof upon waking?

But of course you and glassjester know this already, you just can't admit to knowing it so you continue to ask these silly questions while searching for some way of trying to dismiss the obvious.

I'm mostly interested in dismissing the oblivious and noting the intellectually problematic stand of subjective valuations on being and right.

 

[ok doser]

This phenomena of dream-sleep is part of the experience of being a living person. A part that doesn't occur in fetuses...

:think:

Spoiler

quip, on calling an unborn child a "baby":

Why would they not?

I'm sure those that don't desire their unborn baby......don't.

when a woman goes to planned parenthood to get help to murder her child, what do you think she calls it?

 

[glassjester]

If such became a permanent state, I would say 'personhood' has been irretrievably lost

And is the fetal stage permanent?

 

[glassjester]

:think:

Spoiler

quip, on calling an unborn child a "baby":

when a woman goes to planned parenthood to get help to murder her child, what do you think she calls it?

She knows it's a baby. In fact, that's the whole reason she wants to kill the unborn child, because it's a baby.

 

[quip]

:think:

Spoiler

quip, on calling an unborn child a "baby":

when a woman goes to planned parenthood to get help to murder her child, what do you think she calls it?

"it"

 

[quip]

She knows it's a baby. In fact, that's the whole reason she wants to kill the unborn child, because it's a baby.

She wants to kill it because its a baby?

Seems you're desperately projecting some emotional nonsense here. But hey, it's a free country.

 

[Crucible]

Hey look, it's a 'chicken'.

And here's an 'egg'

:think:

 

[PureX]

And is the fetal stage permanent?

No, but nor has personhood manifested, yet. So it cannot be 'lost'.

The point of sexual abstinence is to prevent a new person from manifesting, unintentionally. The point of birth control is to prevent a new person from manifesting, unintentionally. And the point of early stage abortion is to prevent a new person from manifesting, unintentionally. Very few people see it as wrong for us to prevent personhood from manifesting, unintentionally. Most people, however, do see it as wrong for us to deny personhood, once it has manifested.

That's the difference.

 

[Town Heretic]

Hey look, it's a 'chicken'.

And here's an 'egg'

:think:

And in both forms the same rights attach.

 

[Rusha]

No, but nor has personhood manifested, yet. So it cannot be 'lost'.

The point of sexual abstinence is to prevent a new person from manifesting, unintentionally. The point of birth control is to prevent a new person from manifesting, unintentionally. And the point of early stage abortion is to prevent a new person from manifesting, unintentionally.

In the case of abortion, the *new* person already exists ... the intention of abortion is to kill the new person so they cannot be born.

 

[kmoney]

No, but nor has personhood manifested, yet. So it cannot be 'lost'.

The point of sexual abstinence is to prevent a new person from manifesting, unintentionally. The point of birth control is to prevent a new person from manifesting, unintentionally.

Great! Thanks for pointing out the unnecessity of abortion.

 

[Crucible]

And in both forms the same rights attach.

..according to new age conservatives.

The rest of the world, and most of history, disagree. The Bible itself, even. They are property.

You all labor under a legendary cognitive dissonance.

 

[Greg Jennings]

Hey look, it's a 'chicken'.

And here's an 'egg'

:think:

What do you think about third trimester abortions (not counting medical emergencies)? The "egg" is a "chick" easily by that point

 

[Crucible]

What do you think about third trimester abortions (not counting medical emergencies)? The "egg" is a "chick" easily by that point

The soul has fully manifested when the woman goes into labor, which is the actual quickening, not the 'when the baby moves' notion that a few popes liked to think. And now you have modern conservatives basically equating zygotes to born humans.

 

[Town Heretic]

..according to new age conservatives.

Let me help you with the thing you missed. In both cases the right they have is to be eaten. Or, no rights really at all.

The rest of the world, and most of history, disagree.

They might if they'd missed the joke, so maybe, possibly, even probably.

Most of the world is and always has been profoundly ignorant, especially about history. That happens when you spend most of your time trying to subsist.

The Bible itself, even.

For you (God) created my inmost being, You knit me together in my mother's womb...My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. Psalm 139:13-15

I suppose he should have said, You knit the thing that would become me, eh? "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart..." Jeremiah 1:5

That cutup, Jeremiah.

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed..."As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy" Luke 1:41-44

Women, right? What are you gonna do...then there's Exodus life for a life when the unborn dies. Just joshing, I guess.

They are property.

You think most people in the history of the world have thought of themselves as property or are you going rogue on me?

You all labor under a legendary cognitive dissonance.

Well, now I know you can at least spell cognitive dissonance. lain:

 

[glassjester]

The soul has fully manifested when the woman goes into labor

Two questions:

How do you know that?
Does induced labor "make" the soul appear sooner?


***Edit - One more question:

Do babies born by c-section have no souls?

 

[Crucible]

For you (God) created my inmost being, You knit me together in my mother's womb...My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. Psalm 139:13-15

Predestined.
In Jewish lore, the souls of men are already made and await a vessel to manifest. This is yet another example of how you shouldn't take everything literally in the Bible.

(and why you need to be Calvinist)

Also
The law of the Levites clearly shows that fetuses were property. The only concern was the health of the woman.
They had an entirely polar belief of what you all claim, to say the least of the absurdity that they'd put a man, who was worth more than women let alone the unborn, to death.

Quite simply, your interpretation of this is laughably wrong:

Exodus life for a life when the unborn dies.

 

[glassjester]

No, but nor has personhood manifested, yet. So it cannot be 'lost'.

Is a history of "manifested personhood" a necessary condition of personhood?

 

[genuineoriginal]

Hey look, it's a 'chicken'.

And here's an 'egg'

:think:

And this next image is the Filipino street food known as Balut.
(do not open the spoiler tag if you are faint of heart or easily grossed out)

Spoiler