I weren't tryin to.Well, you tricked me.
Once in a blue moon I do something right. (Which is also a good song!)
Theology Club: Actual, Mid-Acts, Bible Study
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I prefer the version on the movie Babe, sung by mice.I weren't tryin to.
Once in a blue moon I do something right. (Which is also a good song!)
I was thinking of this one. Different song all together.I prefer the version on the movie Babe, sung by mice.
In verse 4, John describes three groups of saints who are to co-reign with the Messiah.
First, in verse 4a, there are those to whom judgment was given.
This would be a reference to the Church saints who were raptured at some time preceding the Great Tribulation. The judgment spoken of is that of the Judgment Seat of the Messiah, the judgment of the believer's works. In fact, it is the outcome of this judgment that will determine the position of each Church saint in the Kingdom.
Secondly, in verse 4b there are those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus.
These saints are the believers who will be martyred during the first half of the Great Tribulation and were mentioned under the fifth seal (Rev. 6:9-11).
Thirdly, in verse 4c there are those who did not worship the Antichrist or his image, nor receive the mark of 666 on their forehead or right hand. Since these things were initiated only at the middle of the Tribulation, this third group of saints will be those of the second half of the Great Tribulation.
Both Church and Tribulation saints, then, will co reign with the King for one thousand years. The Old Testament saints will have a different destiny.
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One does not build an entire University based on the Mid-Acts Perspective of Dispensationalism on the little you have concluded it does or does not hold to.
And an entire University is what the late Charles Baker helped found.
Google the words "pdf A Dispensational Theology Charles F. Baker" and a copy of one of said University's required readings will come up.
It alone is some 600 pages plus.
You'll find the Mid-Acts Perspective of Dispensationalism is more than an Eschatology.
Another, shorter work of his can be found via googling the words "pdf Dispensational Relationships Charles F. Baker."
Thing is, people either tend to not bother looking into the history of a thing, or do so not really well equipped to look at a thing objectively.
Case in point - one of John Nelson Darby's earliest distinctions was not the distinction that Dispensationalism in General is now known for - the distinction between the Nation ISRAEL and The Body of Christ.
Rather, he arrived at that as the result of a prior distinction - his understanding of the Believer's Complete Identity in Christ.
Which is an understanding that goes beyond Eschatological distinctions.
And even that understanding had only been a continuance of what had already been in motion for him as a point of departure from the Reformed tradition he had been a part of.
Thing is, on the one hand, such things are never as black and white as most appear to need to make them.
On the other, that alone does not mean there isn't a black that is, and can be distinguished from a white.
You might notice this fact from all that Baker's book "A Dispensational Theology" often only touches the surface of.
Because each aspect of the whole that is Mid-Acts Dispensationalism (Soteriology; Bibliology; Angelology; etc.) is a never ending, ever fascinating study in it's own right.
Case in point - a later, much more refined understanding holds to far less Dispensations or Economies than Baker had held to in his day.
The determining factor being, not departure from the basic Acts 9 study approach, rather; further refinements in the basic study approach.
Further refinements which result only from continually returning to the Scripture to there attempt to better understand the text absent of the Mid-Acts Perspective going in, as a means of keeping the Scripture separate from the Perspective: actually hearing the text out, and given all that then entails paying close attention to.
Case in point - my comment to the poster quoted in the OP.
His assertion is erroneous in that the Lord saved the Apostle Paul, after God had already concluded both Unbelieving ISRAEL and the Gentiles "under sin."
Both were now concluded "heathen" "pagan" or given over to "idolatry."
But that poster's point of departure is the error that is the fusion or hybrid of how Acts 9 Dispensationalism studies a thing out with how Acts 28 Dispensationalism studies them out.
The result being that various of his/their positions end up neither actually Acts 9, nor Acts 28 based.
Rather, such have ended up at a hybrid of both approaches and their differrent conclusions that results in views held by neither.
Their marriage of points of departure held by both the Acts 9 and the Acts 28 is obvious to anyone familiar with the history of both the Acts 9 and the Acts 28 Perspectives within Dispensationalism in general.
As someone once astutely noted "within any belief lies the history of it's origin."
The result being that tracing a conclusion and or it's resulting assertion back to it's origin (beliefs, approach, etc.) ends up not that tough a thing to trace back.
Problem is, such easily take offense to having this pointed out to them.
Bad enough such continually prove I'll-equipped to see the obvious.
A Mid-Acts Study Principle ever worth keeping in mind.
We read the following concerning the Apostle Paul prior to, and just after his encounter with, and salvation by, the Lord...
Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
As is, that all appears to assert that the Apostle Paul continued his trip to Damascus after he encountered the Lord, and shortly thereafter, he began to preach that He is the Son of God.
By itself; it leads to that error, but also, to the error concerning what is implied by Luke's assertion there that Paul preached that Christ is the Son of God.
In fact, there is a gap in time in between the following two sentences, the awareness of which impacts one's conclusions.
Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
We read the following concerning all that in...
Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Meaning that the UNDERSTANDING of this...
Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
...is actually this...
Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. (...went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.) Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
I'll return to add more to this...
But one point is that one ought to often carefully consider that Gaps In Time between a word, a phrase, and or passages, might sometimes be the case, and need to be considered as A Study Principle because the awareness and or unawareness of such Gaps in Time can greatly impact one's resulting conclusions.
We read the following concerning the Apostle Paul prior to, and just after his encounter with, and salvation by, the Lord...
Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
As is, that all appears to assert that the Apostle Paul continued his trip to Damascus after he encountered the Lord, and shortly thereafter, he began to preach that He is the Son of God.
By itself; it leads to that error, but also, to the error concerning what is implied by Luke's assertion there that Paul preached that Christ is the Son of God.
In fact, there is a gap in time in between the following two sentences, the awareness of which impacts one's conclusions.
Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
We read the following concerning all that in...
Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Meaning that the UNDERSTANDING of this...
Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
...is actually this...
Acts 9:19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. (...went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.) Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Acts 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
I'll return to add more to this...
But one point is that one ought to often carefully consider that Gaps In Time between a word, a phrase, and or passages, might sometimes be the case, and need to be considered as A Study Principle because the awareness and or unawareness of such Gaps in Time can greatly impact one's resulting conclusions.
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Thanks Mr. Tolerance.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
Well, ok.
I view the thrones being those promised to the faithful of Israel.
Matthew 19 KJV
(28) And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22 KJV
(30) That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Daniel 7 KJV
(9) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
(18) But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
(22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
(27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
(9) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
(18) But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
(22) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
(27) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Fruchtenbaum makes a strong connection that the first group vs 4a to the bema judgement. I gotta go with that
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Still True:
Gentiles found in a synagogue vs pagan Gentiles
They did not take the same path into the Body.
How could pagan Gentiles be "heirs according to the promise"? :idunno:
Gentiles found in a synagogue vs pagan Gentiles
They did not take the same path into the Body.
How could pagan Gentiles be "heirs according to the promise"? :idunno:
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
I can see how pagan Gentiles became: "Joint heirs with Christ, partakers of his promise in Christ, by the gospel."
OK.
So where do you include the 12 thrones promised to the sons of Israel to judge the 12 tribes of Israel?
What would be the need of them if the BOC has already been appointed to judge?
Actual, Mid-Acts, Bible Study
On two occasions, Yeshua promised the Twelve Apostles that they will be in authority over the Twelve Tribes in the Kingdom.
The first of these passages is Matthew 19:28: And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The time referred to is that of the regeneration or the renovation of the earth, when the Messiah will sit upon the reestablished Throne of David in His glory. It is then that twelve other thrones will be set up, one over each of the Twelve Tribes, and the Apostles will sit on these thrones and exercise rule.
The second passage is found in Luke 22:28-30: But ye are they that have continued with me in my temptations; and I appoint unto you a kingdom, even as my Father appointed unto me, that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; and ye shall sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The Millennial Kingdom that the Father appointed for the Son was extended to the Twelve Apostles by the Messiah.
The difference is that Messiah's domain will be all over the world, David's rule over all Israel, while the Apostles' jurisdiction will be over particular tribes.
The Twelve are promised two privileges with this appointment. First, they will be continually with the Messiah, eating and drinking at His table throughout the Kingdom period. Secondly , they will have their own thrones from which they will rule over the Tribes of Israel.
Unfortunately, nothing is said as to which Apostle is to rule over which tribe. The answer to that question awaits fulfillment in the future Kingdom.
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On two occasions, Yeshua promised the Twelve Apostles that they will be in authority over the Twelve Tribes in the Kingdom.
The first of these passages is Matthew 19:28: And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The time referred to is that of the regeneration or the renovation of the earth, when the Messiah will sit upon the reestablished Throne of David in His glory. It is then that twelve other thrones will be set up, one over each of the Twelve Tribes, and the Apostles will sit on these thrones and exercise rule.
The second passage is found in Luke 22:28-30: But ye are they that have continued with me in my temptations; and I appoint unto you a kingdom, even as my Father appointed unto me, that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom; and ye shall sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
The Millennial Kingdom that the Father appointed for the Son was extended to the Twelve Apostles by the Messiah.
The difference is that Messiah's domain will be all over the world, David's rule over all Israel, while the Apostles' jurisdiction will be over particular tribes.
The Twelve are promised two privileges with this appointment. First, they will be continually with the Messiah, eating and drinking at His table throughout the Kingdom period. Secondly , they will have their own thrones from which they will rule over the Tribes of Israel.
Unfortunately, nothing is said as to which Apostle is to rule over which tribe. The answer to that question awaits fulfillment in the future Kingdom.
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In Psalm 72, the different Gentile nations will have kings reining over them. These kings will have their natural bodies, while the saints who will be over them will have their spiritual, resurrected, and glorified bodies. While the individual kings will be the supreme rulers over their own nations, they themselves will be under the authority of the Church and Tribulation saints.
So then, in the Gentile branch of government, the chain of command will be from the Messiah, to the Church and Tribulation saints, to the kings of the Gentile nations.
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So then, in the Gentile branch of government, the chain of command will be from the Messiah, to the Church and Tribulation saints, to the kings of the Gentile nations.
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But, do you not see that if there is a group responsible for judging everyone in the whole world (in your view would be the BOC), then what is the point to have another group of a few that only judges a small portion of the world?
Or are you saying that the 12 judge Israel and the BOC judges the rest of the world (ie. all outside of Israel)?
Yours is error.
Here is someone else who also proves you are in error.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnk4gcuP_5I&app=desktop
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It's odd that you will not just come out and SAY what the error is. Are you ashamed of your position?