turbosixx
New member
I'm sorry but this confused me. You say it wasn't postponed but then say Jesus will return soon and establish this kingdom. Could you please explain?
ACTS 2 PENTECOST
- Thread starter DougE
- Start date
I'm sorry but this confused me. You say it wasn't postponed but then say Jesus will return soon and establish this kingdom. Could you please explain?
Greetings turbosixx,
Luke 24:25-27 (KJV): 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
He also knew that the prophets teach that the Kingdom would be established at his return:
Psalm 110:1-2 (KJV): 1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Daniel 2:35,44 (KJV): 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Many other references could be added that detail the sufferings of Christ and the details concerning the coming Kingdom. As far as the near return of Jesus, one of the greatest evidences is the return of the Jews to their land, and this is not only prophesied, but many of the prophecies indicate that they are recently returned when the events surrounding the Kingdom occur, for example Ezekiel 38:8,11-12. There are other prophecies such as Zechariah 12:1-3 and Zechariah 14:2 which indicate that part of the controversy will be centred in Jerusalem. The spotlight has been recently focused on Jerusalem, with the recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. There are many other indications that the return of Jesus is near, based on the prophecies and teachings of the Bible.
Kind regards
Trevor
I am not sure what you have a problem with here. Jesus knew from the prophets that at his first coming he would suffer, and be crucified and die, and then be resurrected and ascend to sit at the right hand of God, his Father.
Luke 24:25-27 (KJV): 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
He also knew that the prophets teach that the Kingdom would be established at his return:
Psalm 110:1-2 (KJV): 1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Daniel 2:35,44 (KJV): 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Many other references could be added that detail the sufferings of Christ and the details concerning the coming Kingdom. As far as the near return of Jesus, one of the greatest evidences is the return of the Jews to their land, and this is not only prophesied, but many of the prophecies indicate that they are recently returned when the events surrounding the Kingdom occur, for example Ezekiel 38:8,11-12. There are other prophecies such as Zechariah 12:1-3 and Zechariah 14:2 which indicate that part of the controversy will be centred in Jerusalem. The spotlight has been recently focused on Jerusalem, with the recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. There are many other indications that the return of Jesus is near, based on the prophecies and teachings of the Bible.
Kind regards
Trevor
turbosixx
New member
Thanks for the reply Trevor. Yes, Jesus spoke of his D,B&R and how it was prophesied. His death would not stop his kingdom from being established. In fact, that is what it is founded on. Jesus said many times that the kingdom was at hand and described what it is like or can be compared to. When you read those passages, do you see an earthly kingdom or the church? I see the church. I suggest they are one and the same. Please consider these passages.
Matt. 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Here before His D,B&R, Jesus is looking forward to his church being built and giving Peter the keys of the kingdom.
In Acts 2 we see that the church was built and Peter using those keys and letting 3,000 souls in, Acts 2:41.
Col. 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Paul says we have been transferred to the kingdom.
I suggest these are OT prophecies looking to his first appearance.
Peter mentions this verse in his sermon on Pentecost the day the church was established.
Acts 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
35 until I make your enemies your footstool.”’
It's my understanding that by Peter quoting this verse he is saying this is what that verse was looking forward to. Also, this verse is a reference to Jesus ascending not descending.
In the days of those kings. What kingdom do you understand him to be speaking of? I suggest it's the Roman empire and that is exactly when Jesus appeared proclaiming the kingdom was at hand.
Matt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
If the kingdom wasn't established on Pentecost, wouldn't that make Jesus a false prophet?
After Jesus's D,B&R, the kingdom is not spoken of as still in the future.
Acts 8:12 Acts 28:23 Col. 1:13 2 Thes. 1:5
Hope that makes some sense.
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If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Ephesians 3:2
Paul here is stating a new dispensation.
Acts, as a whole, is presenting the diminishing of Israel and God turning to the Gentiles. It is a new dispensation of Grace where there is no longer Jew and Gentile.
God in the future will bring Israel thru the tribulation and the new covenant will restore them.
They will rule and reign with him in the Kingdom on earth and be a light to the Gentile nations til the new heavens and earth.
Paul here is stating a new dispensation.
Acts, as a whole, is presenting the diminishing of Israel and God turning to the Gentiles. It is a new dispensation of Grace where there is no longer Jew and Gentile.
God in the future will bring Israel thru the tribulation and the new covenant will restore them.
They will rule and reign with him in the Kingdom on earth and be a light to the Gentile nations til the new heavens and earth.
Right Divider
Body part
Mat 25:31-34 KJV When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: (33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. (34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
That is yet future.
Greetings turbosixx,
Do you believe that Jesus will return?
Kind regards
Trevor
The Kingdom is to be established when the Roman Empire is spoken of as iron mixed with clay, but Jesus died at the period when the Roman Empire was at its greatest, and depicted by the iron.
2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Do you believe that Jesus will return?
Kind regards
Trevor
turbosixx
New member
I agree. I believe it's the final judgment.
Matt. 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
turbosixx
New member
Greetings.
The Roman empire has fallen and there have been more since then.
In your understanding, was the church planned or plan B?
I do believe Jesus will return.
1 Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
And then the judgment.
Greetings again turbosixx,
Our relationship with Daniel 2:44 is mentioned here by Jesus:
Matthew 21:42-44 (KJV): 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes, to use Gibbon’s title, The Roman Empire has Declined and Fallen. But Daniel 2 depicts the feet and toes of iron and clay as a progression from the legs of iron, and then the stone hits the image on these feet of iron and clay, and replaces the Kingdoms of men with the Kingdom of God. This may have started in some sense at Pentecost, but the real change will come at Christ’s return, and there will be in effect a direct confrontation until the Kingdoms of men are completely replaced by the Kingdom of God. Christ is our Lord, Ruler, Master now and is the embodiment of the Kingdom. The believer is a potential citizen, but the Kingdom is a term that is also used of what will be established when Jesus returns.
Our relationship with Daniel 2:44 is mentioned here by Jesus:
Matthew 21:42-44 (KJV): 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
God’s purpose and plan was known to Him before the Creation.
That’s good, we agree on this. These two elements are in the verses I quoted, and it also says that at that time Jesus will establish the Kingdom:
2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Kind regards
Trevor
turbosixx
New member
Looking at that passage. When did/will the builders reject the stone?
What is meant by "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof "? When has/will this happen?
Two questions from this. If God planned for the church, where do you see it prophesied in the OT? God knows the plan, why did Jesus proclaim the kingdom was at hand if it wasn't to be for going on 2,000 years now?
Not the final judgement but the judgement of the nations when Christ returns to reign from the throne of David.
These nations will be judged according to how they treated Christ's kinsmen[Israelites] during Daniel's 70th week... the tribulation. This judgment is the same as described in Joel 3 and takes place in the Kiddron valley...the valley of Jehosaphat[Jehovah judges].
The final judgement[white throne] is a thousand years later.
The leadership of the Kingdom to Israel was taken away from the 1st century Priests, Scribes and Pharisees and was given to the nascent Little Flock which was to grow into the believing remnant which would then constitute the renewed nation of Israel according to prophecy.
Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
turbosixx
New member
So you're saying there's two judgments where souls are sent to their eternal destinations?
The end of Joel 2 happened on Pentecost and the beginning of 3 says in those days and at that time.
turbosixx
New member
What do you understand the believing remnant to be? It's my understanding that believers are Christians and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek but one new man.
This is before Jesus's D,B&R. After His sacrifice we do not see the kingdom spoken as still future.
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
How could there be good new about the kingdom?
Acts 28:23 When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets.
What was Paul testifying about the kingdom of God?
There are several 'judgements' in Scripture. My sins were judged at the cross two-thousand years ago, but that was not the final white throne judgement of the dead according to their works.
Whether the goats go directly to the lake of fire at that instant or whether they are held in Hades until the white throne and then cast into the lake of fire, I can't be certain, but the Lord can do it any time He sees fit.
The beginning of the ending of Joel began to happen at Pentecost. It was not completed. It is yet to be completed at the Lord's second coming to earth.
turbosixx
New member
What is your understanding of the second coming? If I understand correctly, the kingdom is for the Jews. Do you think that will include Christians or only Christians?
The believing remnant refers to corporate Israel according to prophecy, not the church the BOC according to the mystery which was not revealed through prophecy.
The believing remnant pertains to the regathering of the twelve tribes back to the land promised, according to prophecy.
In the one new man, the new entity according to the mystery, the church, the BOC, the Jew has no seniority, yet according to prophecy, in the restored Kingdom to Israel in the regeneration, will rise under Messiah to be head of the nations and a Kingdom of Priests. Two separate programs, one earthly and one heavenly.
Yes, we do.
Nothing changed concerning the Kingdom being at hand after the DBR until Israel's continued rejection of Messiah and Kingdom at the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7 and the persecution of the Jewish Church in Acts 8 and all the way to Acts 28 in Rome.
The Lord taught His 11 disciples things concerning Israel's future restored kingdom for forty days following His resurrection. They asked Him if He was now going to restore the Kingdom to Israel. His only reply was that they could not know the timing. Paul refers to this same timing according to prophecy for Israel in 1Thess 5:1.
This is the good news as understood by the twelve and their disciples at that time which required Israel's repentance and the Lord's return to earth:
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Since he was obviously teaching from the Law and the Prophets to Jews concerning the Kingdom, then he was teaching the content of information according to prophecy for Israel regarding to the Kingdom of Israel under Messiah's reign.
Paul's response to the rejection by the majority was this:
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
This salvation to the nations/gentiles was not to be according to prophecy for Israel but the good news of salvation according to the special revelation that he received from the ascended Lord... Paul's gospel, the gospel of the grace of God according to the mystery.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
turbosixx
New member
Thanks for the reply.
Could you please describe what you believe the "earthly" kingdom will be like in basic terms?
What I understand is that the temple will be rebuilt and that Jesus will physically sit on the throne for 1,000 years. After that I'm not sure what the general consensus is. Will it be Jewish Christians or all Jews. Since there are priest will there be animal sacrifices and so on.
You're welcome.
I appreciate your interest.
Peter said in Act 3:21 that with the Lord's return that there would be a restitution/Grk apokatastasis/reconstitution of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Apokatastasis related to apokathistemi in Mat 12:13 translated 'restored' the withered arm.
Therefore, to understand what it will be like, we must go to the OT Prophets and see what they said.
It's such a huge subject. I'd much rather talk it than type it.
We know from Gen 49 that the Sceptre[kingship] will belong to a descendant of Judah and to Him will the gathering of 'the people'[a phrase used in reference to the people of Israel throughout Scripture] be.
Referenced again in Psa 110:3 and other places. His people[Israel] were not willing at His first coming but will be at His second coming. Psa 110: describes Christ's violent judgement at His coming.
Peter cites the Messianic Psa 2:1-3 in Act 4:25-26. If GOD had stuck to the Prophetic script at that point in Acts 4, He would have poured out His wrath on Israel and the nations according to Psa 2:5. But He didn't pour out His wrath. So, what did He do? He halted the prophetic program for Israel and transistionally began to start something new... 'the gospel of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery' revealed to and thru Paul for the nations, including individuals from the fallen and set aside nation of Israel. This is a revelation not from OT Prophecy, but something hidden in GOD from the foundation of the world. It was planned all along.
Therefore, the wrath is yet to come and we find ourselves in the Dispensation of the Grace of GOD. All of Paul's letters open with 'Grace and peace from GOD our father and the Lord Jesus Christ'. This is GOD's attitude toward the nations in this dispensation.
Evidently, there will be a tribulation temple for the events of that period and a millennial temple from which Christ will reign from the throne of David as both King and Priest.
Satan will be loosed from the pit for a short while to reveal the rebellious hearts of many who were born during the millennium. The revolt will be smashed, the white throne judgement will occur and then the new heavens and earth with New Jerusalem coming down. Paul says in Eph 1:10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He shall gather all things that are in heaven and earth as one in Christ Jesus. Good and evil will be separated forever.
As for the BOC, Paul says that our citizenship is in heaven.
That is the mystery program as distinct from the prophetic earthly program for the corporate remnant of Israel's land inheritance. In the millennium there will be Jews and gentiles who survived the tribulation still dwelling in Adam's flesh. They will repopulate the earth and have the potential to live a thousand years.
GOD always intended for Israel to be a nation of priests Ex 19 and Isaiah 61, mediators between GOD and the nations/gentiles.
He began with one tribe and is waiting for the time when Israel will be empowered to obey Him, thus becoming a nation of priests.
Ezekiel describes the millennial temple and the sacrifices which take place there. There are many objections to this.
I'm tired and I strained at this and didn't cover all that I'd like to.
Maybe pick it up again later in a more systematic way.
Greetings again turbosixx,
Isaiah 49:3–6 (KJV): 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. .
Kind regards
Trevor
They had already rejected him at the time, but especially at the trial and crucifixion.
Israel were the Kingdom of God, but the nation was soon to be destroyed in AD70.
The following indicates that the preaching would go to the Gentiles at a time when Israel failed to respond.
Isaiah 49:3–6 (KJV): 3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. .
My only suggestion is that He, Himself, as the embodiment of the Kingdom, and the availability of those responding to be prospectively part of this Kingdom.
Kind regards
Trevor
turbosixx
New member
Yes there is quite a lot to this and appreciate your reply. I would like to respond to several of your comments but in an effort to keep it shorter I would like to address these.
He halted the prophetic program for Israel and transistionally began to start something new... 'the gospel of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery' revealed to and thru Paul for the nations
All of Paul's letters open with 'Grace and peace from GOD our father and the Lord Jesus Christ'
Yes, Paul's letters open with grace because they are ALL written to Christians. People who had already been converted to Christ. How was what Paul preached to convert people to Christ different than what Peter proclaimed on Pentecost?