About that atheism thing…

[kmoney]

Like football. :chuckle:

Faith shouldn't look like this. Should it?

:chuckle:

 

[zippy2006]

Watching faith be reduced to a bunch of x's, y's and whatnot is desiccating.

Who's talking about faith? :think:

...your criticisms seem particularly stretched of late.

 

[annabenedetti]

Who's talking about faith? :think:

...your criticisms seem particularly stretched of late.

You took me off ignore already? That didn't last long.

 

[zippy2006]

You took me off ignore already? That didn't last long.

Ah, another jab! :think:

No, you're still on ignore. Again, I've given you a means to reach me and invited a serious conversation and perhaps reconciliation. That ball has been in your court for months now.

 

[Lon]

I'm a Christian Lon, but in reading the above, it basically says you know that Scripture reveals God because Scripture convinced you. For someone who doesn't believe the Bible is God's word, how would that convince him of anything? I don't see it.

Not just the scriptures, but for me that too. I believe them truthfully consistent. I might have to caveat that by silent, I don't mean 'quiet.' Francis Schaeffer coined the title "He is There and is Not Silent" which embraces the truth of Romans 1 that God is clearly seen by what He has made, that all people are with no excuse. He wasn't meaning that God doesn't whisper or give us time-outs. In Him'
-Lon

 

[annabenedetti]

Ah, another jab! :think:

That's a jab? Really?

Then I can't imagine what you thought all those times you watched your buddy sod stomp on me. You must have been horrified at all his "jabs." Oh wait...

No, you're still on ignore.

Well, obviously I'm not or you wouldn't be talking to me.

Feel free to use the full powers of the ignore function as they were meant to be used. I won't mind a bit.

Again, I've given you a means to reach me and invited a serious conversation and perhaps reconciliation. That ball has been in your court for months now.

No, that won't be happening.



Evo, I'm sorry for the sidebar.

 

[zippy2006]

That's a jab? Really?

Then I can't imagine what you thought all those times you watched your buddy sod stomp on me. You must have been horrified at all his "jabs." Oh wait...

You traded punches back and forth, ad nauseum. :idunno:

What you wanted me to do was start throwing punches at sod, to put more blood on the floor. If I was in that business then you and I would also be in a perpetual boxing ring and all the blows to the head would have had me resembling you as much as you resemble sod.

Well, obviously I'm not or you wouldn't be talking to me.

Feel free to use the full powers of the ignore function as they were meant to be used. I won't mind a bit.

I haven't found the "ignore" manual, and the ignore function includes a very easy way to see single posts. Apparently the way you use it is different from the way I use it and the way the functionality allows for.

Again, I've given you a means to reach me and invited a serious conversation and perhaps reconciliation.

No, that won't be happening.

It's your call. Sod too cringed at the thought of giving up that ghost.

Evo, I'm sorry for the sidebar.

I hope this means we're done here?

 

[annabenedetti]

You traded punches back and forth, ad nauseum. :idunno:

He's a sociopathic bully, and I defended myself when all other avenues failed. That you obviously have no idea of the reality of the situation is part of your very large blind spot where he's concerned.

What you wanted me to do was start throwing punches at sod, to put more blood on the floor. If I was in that business then you and I would also be in a perpetual boxing ring and all the blows to the head would have had me resembling you as much as you resemble sod.

I don't resemble sod. That you would say so is an attempt to wound me and shows the side of you that I can see even if you can't see it yourself. You seem to think that when you come here you never get your hands dirty, that you're above us all - and you're not. The fact that you initiated this conversation in yet another attempt to 'school' me leaves me very sure that I did the right thing in breaking off contact with you.

I haven't found the "ignore" manual, and the ignore function includes a very easy way to see single posts. Apparently the way you use it is different from the way I use it and the way the functionality allows for.

Try a dictionary and see if that helps.

It's your call. Sod too cringed at the thought of giving up that ghost.

Damn straight it's my call. You've thought for a long time that you had some sort of moral authority over me, and you don't.

I hope this means we're done here?

I certainly hope so. Let's see if you can walk away.

 

[zippy2006]

He's a sociopathic bully, and I defended myself when all other avenues failed. That you obviously have no idea of the reality of the situation is part of your very large blind spot where he's concerned.

But even if he is a total sociopath who only lives to drool his venom on others on TOL, then he is even more needful of our prayers and kindness... That will show his victims the real alternative in the face of whatever evils he may be inflicting...

I don't resemble sod.

You do. You wish to injure the person and their reputation.

You seem to think that you come here and never get your hands dirty, that you're above us all - and you're not.

My hands are plenty dirty. But on your score I'm not sure where the dirt resides. So I've asked you to explain it to me privately, many times.

The fact that you initiated this conversation in yet another attempt to 'school' me leaves me very sure that I did the right thing in breaking off contact with you.

I didn't initiate it. You did. Twice.

Damn straight it's my call. You've thought for a long time that you had some sort of moral authority over me, and you don't.

Of course I don't. :idunno:

 

[annabenedetti]

I was talking to kmo, not you.

I knew you couldn't walk away, because it's so incredibly important for you to be right, and to make sure I know it.

I'll do the walking away then, and you can have the last word. Ad nauseam.

 

[Jedidiah]

You two bicker like brother and sister. :thumb:

 

[zippy2006]

I was talking to kmo, not you.

Ah, my mistake. Next time you should quote him in your post so it's more clear.

:e4e:

 

[Jedidiah]

What if in your own calculations you forgot something and Allah is the true God? Or Ahura Mazda? Or Zeus? To be honest, I am no more concerned about that than Christians are with respect to the vast number of deities they have personally concluded do not exist or are not the true God. I don’t live my life thinking about how a deity I don’t believe exists may or may not feel about what I am doing.




Well, as I said, as an atheist I don’t think about these things but if such a God exists, he is more than welcome to speak his mind and let me know how he feels




I appreciate your concern but I didn’t grow up as a Christian. My shift towards unbelief is not driven by a curiosity to see what it is like on the other side, as would a Christian who was sheltered from that side all his life. I know what it is like and I lived on that side before eventually becoming a Christian as I noted in some of my previous posts in this thread.




I respect your perspective that you felt you were missing out by abandoning the Christian faith but for me it is the reverse as holding on to it gave me nothing but cognitive dissonance.

Thanks for your post, :cheers:


Evo

Can you explain this cognitive dissonance ? Was it at all concerning the morals of the Body of Christ versus the morals of the world ?

 

[PureX]

I was talking to kmo, not you.

I knew you couldn't walk away, because it's so incredibly important for you to be right, and to make sure I know it.

I'll do the walking away then, and you can have the last word. Ad nauseam.

There are some among us who can't think with their brains, or hearts, but only with their egos. And I suppose we are all guilty of this occasionally, to some degree. In fact, one of the things I like about TOL is that I feel it's teaching me to let go and leave those ego-driven and argumentative discussions without letting my own ego get all auto-defensive. I still have a ways to go, but I do think I'm getting better at this.

I'm really glad to see you back on TOL, again; you have a great deal of wisdom, heart, and insight to share with us. But I'm hoping you won't let the ego-defiensiveness that runs rampant around here get to you. I'd rather lose you from TOL than see you hurt by it.

 

[PureX]

Like football. :chuckle:

Faith shouldn't look like this. Should it?

No. But sadly, that is what religious dogmatism looks like when people confuse their religion with their God.

 

[annabenedetti]

As some friends and fellow TOLers have noticed, some of whom have sent me messages asking about it (thanks! ), and for others who have yet to notice but who knew what I previously believed: I no longer consider myself a Catholic nor a theist.

As to what lead to this change, it had been some time in the making, reaching a tipping point about a year and a half ago. But the short of it is that I don’t see the hand of an all loving, knowing and powerful God at work in the world or what is said to be his Church; rather, I see a God who does his hardest to remain hidden and everything unfolding in a way that one would expect if such a God was not active in the world or simply didn’t exist. I find myself in an universe in which no process attests to God's activity within it.

As my faith in God, the supernatural and the Catholic Church waned, I came to a point where I realised that I was not being honest with myself if I continued on that path. The lack of evidence for God and for the supernatural reality entailed by the beliefs I was holding by faith lead to an internal conflict that kept piling up and by the end I came to realise that I was holding on to the faith due to an emotional attachment to it and not because I still believed in it. But there was no integrity to be found in that setup and I got nothing but cognitive dissonance out of it; so I let go.

While I am an atheist now, I do not consider myself a strong/militant atheist, that is, I don’t make the claim that I know for a fact that God does not exists. Nor do I have a penchant for bashing God or religion. Rather, my disbelief arises for the most part from a lack of evidence and this lack of evidence leads me to think the existence of God or the supernatural is unlikely and I thus live my life as if it doesn’t exists. But as new evidence can always emerge which can change one’s mind, I do not adopt the strong/militant stance as some atheists do.

I wasn’t sure at first what to write for this OP, my original idea was to write a longer post detailing everything but I opted instead for not writing an essay and for leaving things a bit less formal and open, letting the thread unfold by itself and then ride along with it.

The above is condensed for the sake of brevity but I’d be willing to expand on it. So, yeah, I’d be open to discuss things and answer any questions you may have about this change. Hopefully it can be done in a friendly, conversational and respectful manner :cheers:


Evo

Evo, you've been in my thoughts lately, so I looked up your last posts. I hope you're doing well, and that maybe you'll drop by for a visit one of these days.

 

[bybee]

As some friends and fellow TOLers have noticed, some of whom have sent me messages asking about it (thanks! ), and for others who have yet to notice but who knew what I previously believed: I no longer consider myself a Catholic nor a theist.

As to what lead to this change, it had been some time in the making, reaching a tipping point about a year and a half ago. But the short of it is that I don’t see the hand of an all loving, knowing and powerful God at work in the world or what is said to be his Church; rather, I see a God who does his hardest to remain hidden and everything unfolding in a way that one would expect if such a God was not active in the world or simply didn’t exist. I find myself in an universe in which no process attests to God's activity within it.

As my faith in God, the supernatural and the Catholic Church waned, I came to a point where I realised that I was not being honest with myself if I continued on that path. The lack of evidence for God and for the supernatural reality entailed by the beliefs I was holding by faith lead to an internal conflict that kept piling up and by the end I came to realise that I was holding on to the faith due to an emotional attachment to it and not because I still believed in it. But there was no integrity to be found in that setup and I got nothing but cognitive dissonance out of it; so I let go.

While I am an atheist now, I do not consider myself a strong/militant atheist, that is, I don’t make the claim that I know for a fact that God does not exists. Nor do I have a penchant for bashing God or religion. Rather, my disbelief arises for the most part from a lack of evidence and this lack of evidence leads me to think the existence of God or the supernatural is unlikely and I thus live my life as if it doesn’t exists. But as new evidence can always emerge which can change one’s mind, I do not adopt the strong/militant stance as some atheists do.

I wasn’t sure at first what to write for this OP, my original idea was to write a longer post detailing everything but I opted instead for not writing an essay and for leaving things a bit less formal and open, letting the thread unfold by itself and then ride along with it.

The above is condensed for the sake of brevity but I’d be willing to expand on it. So, yeah, I’d be open to discuss things and answer any questions you may have about this change. Hopefully it can be done in a friendly, conversational and respectful manner :cheers:


Evo

Thanks for sharing. Since life is an unfolding, I consider myself to be new every morning. We go through phases in life. There is good and there is bad. Along the road I have met those whom I consider saintly and a few whom I considered the personification of evil.
In my teens I considered suicide. Life seemed depressingly painful, dreary and pointless. At one point I looked at myself in a mirror and asked "Why bother?". The answer? "Because tomorrow shall likely come and you may think differently. Take a chance."
And here I am 78 years old still willing to take a chance on life. Since the alternative will come soon enough why not enjoy life and help someone else along the way if I can?
For what it is worth, I do believe in God. And I believe that God is good.
I see God in the kindness and sacrifice of others, also in rainbows and waterfalls, pine trees and babies of all kinds.
I wish you the best!

 

[Lon]

But the short of it is that I don’t see the hand of an all loving, knowing and powerful God at work in the world or what is said to be his Church; rather, I see a God who does his hardest to remain hidden and everything unfolding in a way that one would expect if....

Evo

The very fact that love exists is its own evidence. About all of us can relate to a crisis of faith. To date? I know of no Job's. Nobody even close. Job 13:5 The creeds serve: I know Jesus walked the earth. I've posted to you already, but yet think and pray for you.

 

[quip]

As some friends and fellow TOLers have noticed, some of whom have sent me messages asking about it (thanks! ), and for others who have yet to notice but who knew what I previously believed: I no longer consider myself a Catholic nor a theist.

As to what lead to this change, it had been some time in the making, reaching a tipping point about a year and a half ago. But the short of it is that I don’t see the hand of an all loving, knowing and powerful God at work in the world or what is said to be his Church; rather, I see a God who does his hardest to remain hidden and everything unfolding in a way that one would expect if such a God was not active in the world or simply didn’t exist. I find myself in an universe in which no process attests to God's activity within it.

As my faith in God, the supernatural and the Catholic Church waned, I came to a point where I realised that I was not being honest with myself if I continued on that path. The lack of evidence for God and for the supernatural reality entailed by the beliefs I was holding by faith lead to an internal conflict that kept piling up and by the end I came to realise that I was holding on to the faith due to an emotional attachment to it and not because I still believed in it. But there was no integrity to be found in that setup and I got nothing but cognitive dissonance out of it; so I let go.

While I am an atheist now, I do not consider myself a strong/militant atheist, that is, I don’t make the claim that I know for a fact that God does not exists. Nor do I have a penchant for bashing God or religion. Rather, my disbelief arises for the most part from a lack of evidence and this lack of evidence leads me to think the existence of God or the supernatural is unlikely and I thus live my life as if it doesn’t exists. But as new evidence can always emerge which can change one’s mind, I do not adopt the strong/militant stance as some atheists do.

I wasn’t sure at first what to write for this OP, my original idea was to write a longer post detailing everything but I opted instead for not writing an essay and for leaving things a bit less formal and open, letting the thread unfold by itself and then ride along with it.

The above is condensed for the sake of brevity but I’d be willing to expand on it. So, yeah, I’d be open to discuss things and answer any questions you may have about this change. Hopefully it can be done in a friendly, conversational and respectful manner :cheers:


Evo

Seek your answers from within, not externally, it's not an All-or-nothing proposition. Spirituality (unlike religion) cannot be traded like a mundane commodity.

 

[freelight]

Seek your answers from within, not externally, it's not an All-or-nothing proposition. Spirituality (unlike religion) cannot be traded like a mundane commodity.

There are some interesting non-theistic religious pathways within the Hindu-Buddhist culture-context, which resonates more within a pantheistic world-view, natural, animistic, without having a traditionally conceived Creator-God behind it all. May have to dive back into those a bit. - I was also going to segway a Seth(Jane Roberts)-concept of 'God' into the equation for fun