Theology Club: A Question for Open Theists

intojoy

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It is enough to see through scripture that God grieves and it is related to our choices and rebellious thoughts and sins.



ephesians 4:30 so that it will give grace to (those who hear). 30 Do not (grieve) the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.



One liner questions do not in any way answer or refute anything.

It simply shows you have little to contribute or/either

you prevaricate.



You ignore the scriptures i present

which you asked me earlier to bring out.



genesis 6:7 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.



Why would God grieve already knowing the outcome and details of what man would individually and corporately do.



God desiring free will worship and relationships with love and passion grieved because the outcome He looked forward to was now going to be necessitated to wait thousands of years.



1 timothy 2:4 who (((desires))) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,…



(desires) is different from commands or robotically made all men to be saved.


You have no idea how you are perceived. You are questioning God and are trying to give strength to your extra biblical conclusions by asking rhetorical questions that your theology answers but the bible does not.

That's not a sin it's just a sign of weakness. It shows that you question your own conclusions.

For example you use the following example:

Premise - God desires all men to be saved.
Conclusion- Therefore God doesn't know who will get saved.

That may appear to be logical from a created being's perspective but it is not biblical.

Here's the proper way of handling this:

Premise - God is omniscient - God desires all men to be saved - Not everyone will be saved.

The question is why. Why doesn't God save everyone if he desires that all would come to repentance?

Answer that according to human thinking and logic and you become a person who came to faith and God merely responds to their faith, God owes salvation to everyone who believes in that they were wise enough to repent from their unbelief.

That's the answer of the open theist - they believed because they repented they they they they...

The way in which the divine sovereignty of God harmonizes with the will of man according to the way in which scripture teaches us is an antinomy. Stop trying to force human reasoning into this.

Do you believe in the Trinity? If so can you explain it? It too is an antinomy. We believe the Trinity by faith and not because we fully comprehend Him.
 

Simon Baker

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You have no idea how you are perceived. You are questioning God and are trying to give strength to your extra biblical conclusions by asking rhetorical questions that your theology answers but the bible does not.

That's not a sin it's just a sign of weakness. It shows that you question your own conclusions.

For example you use the following example:

Premise - God desires all men to be saved.
Conclusion- Therefore God doesn't know who will get saved.

That may appear to be logical from a created being's perspective but it is not biblical.

Here's the proper way of handling this:

Premise - God is omniscient - God desires all men to be saved - Not everyone will be saved.

The question is why. Why doesn't God save everyone if he desires that all would come to repentance?

Answer that according to human thinking and logic and you become a person who came to faith and God merely responds to their faith, God owes salvation to everyone who believes in that they were wise enough to repent from their unbelief.

That's the answer of the open theist - they believed because they repented they they they they...

The way in which the divine sovereignty of God harmonizes with the will of man according to the way in which scripture teaches us is an antinomy. Stop trying to force human reasoning into this.

Do you believe in the Trinity? If so can you explain it? It too is an antinomy. We believe the Trinity by faith and not because we fully comprehend Him.

Amen. Good Post.
 

Word based mystic

New member
You have no idea how you are perceived. You are questioning God and are trying to give strength to your extra biblical conclusions by asking rhetorical questions that your theology answers but the bible does not.

That's not a sin it's just a sign of weakness. It shows that you question your own conclusions.

For example you use the following example:

Premise - God desires all men to be saved.
Conclusion- Therefore God doesn't know who will get saved.

That may appear to be logical from a created being's perspective but it is not biblical.

Here's the proper way of handling this:

Premise - God is omniscient - God desires all men to be saved - Not everyone will be saved.

The question is why. Why doesn't God save everyone if he desires that all would come to repentance?

Answer that according to human thinking and logic and you become a person who came to faith and God merely responds to their faith, God owes salvation to everyone who believes in that they were wise enough to repent from their unbelief.

That's the answer of the open theist - they believed because they repented they they they they...

The way in which the divine sovereignty of God harmonizes with the will of man according to the way in which scripture teaches us is an antinomy. Stop trying to force human reasoning into this.

Do you believe in the Trinity? If so can you explain it? It too is an antinomy. We believe the Trinity by faith and not because we fully comprehend Him.

robot making God doctrine is even more of a human reasoning to explain the tension between The (Fathers) omniscience and the human activity that God responds to.

God puts in place the repent, believe, receive principles validating Gods desire for true relationship. not puppet string response to self worship

Main theme in scripture is relationship empowering, by Jesus's sin sacrifice allowing right relationship between man and God.

relationship not robotic response or slavery commands. But rather Love, passion, worship and praise. All given with relational response.

tie some puppet strings to your future wife
or put an obedient chip in your future spouse and see how that turns out.

Jesus used parables for explaining heavenly principles.
The words of our testimony are used to defeat the enemy.

parables and stories are jumping off points for those not understanding the fullness of Gods love, but rather focus on perfect knowledge and doctrine as a way to be mature.

look at ephesians 3:16-19 How do we become mature.
comprehending = defined as (experiencing) Gods love in all it's depths. not in perfect knowledge.
 

Word based mystic

New member
You have no idea how you are perceived. You are questioning God and are trying to give strength to your extra biblical conclusions by asking rhetorical questions that your theology answers but the bible does not.

That's not a sin it's just a sign of weakness. It shows that you question your own conclusions.

For example you use the following example:

Premise - God desires all men to be saved.
Conclusion- Therefore God doesn't know who will get saved.

That may appear to be logical from a created being's perspective but it is not biblical.

Here's the proper way of handling this:

Premise - God is omniscient - God desires all men to be saved - Not everyone will be saved.

The question is why. Why doesn't God save everyone if he desires that all would come to repentance?

Answer that according to human thinking and logic and you become a person who came to faith and God merely responds to their faith, (((God owes salvation to everyone who believes in that they were wise enough to repent from their unbelief))).

That's the answer of the open theist - they believed because they repented they they they they...

.

(((God owes salvation to everyone who believes in that they were wise enough to repent from their unbelief))).

supposition is that (God owes a debt). that is an installed negative argument point in order to show a negative view of the opposing argument.

I don't hear any open view state that as a premise.

1 peter 3:8 For Christ also died for sins once for ((all)), the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God,
the just for the unjust we were ((all)) unjust.

2 cor 5:15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf

these scriptures show that Christ paid the (debt) given freely because of His Love for (all) His created children.

grace empowering them to repent, believe and receive.
encouraging that (anyone) who knocks He will open the door for.
whoever (hears) and repents, believes and receives.

non robotic responses to ensure true relational interaction, that God (desires)

Why be ((angry)) at your puppet robot if you made them to sin and not have the ability to repent.
 

Word based mystic

New member
God doesn't owe a debt to His created.
He gave freely so that Whosoever through grace would be able to believe and receive

repent, believe and receive is a passive response to the WORK Christ did.

The Works of the law does not produce salvation
only His Work does that
our response is an accepting of a gift.

it is not a gift if it is as truster puts it he didn't want to be saved
it is not a gift if the creator robotically made you to be saved

puppets vs all given the grace to receive.

think relationship
think God rewarding good stewardship

it is not good stewardship if God robotically made you to do everything in your life as a preprogrammed response.
no reward needed then.

basics.
Love, relationship, passion and worship
not stringed puppet made to self worship the Puppet God.
 

Word based mystic

New member
Oh and by the way for anyone whom cares.

I am relatively new at TOL and this is the first time I have heard of MAD and Open perspective labeling

I don't accept a labeling of any kind.

every 5 years I try to find out what is new trends and issues among the christian communities and reconsider and reassess any of my minor doctrines I have embraced in the past.

35 years if study an experiencing God and His body gives me a grid for this wonderful God capturing and changing of my soul/spirit.

I am not perfect in understanding and am open to any concrete overwhelming argument that may impact prior learned doctrines.

I stay within main themes and hierarchal importance of scripture.
i.e. the main commissions originally given to adam in genesis
i.e. Gods continual love and desire for restoration of man.
i.e Gods continual and numerous desire to use men in the interaction God has upon the earth.
i.e. God using His obedient children in supernatural ways from genesis to revelation.
i.e. bride and bridegroom simile's in how God desires a bride for Jesus.
i.e. romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

BrianJOrr

New member
Put what you want, exactly, in the form of a question, please. Be precise.

In Romans 9, is Paul speaking of a temporal, national election, or his he speaking of an eternal, personal election unto salvation? My post was demonstrating that Paul is speaking of an eternal, salvific election.
 

musterion

Well-known member
In Romans 9, is Paul speaking of a temporal, national election, or his he speaking of an eternal, personal election unto salvation? My post was demonstrating that Paul is speaking of an eternal, salvific election.

I didn't read your post. Will reply to your question tomorrow.
 

intojoy

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Banned
God doesn't owe a debt to His created.
He gave freely so that Whosoever through grace would be able to believe and receive

repent, believe and receive is a passive response to the WORK Christ did.

The Works of the law does not produce salvation
only His Work does that
our response is an accepting of a gift.

it is not a gift if it is as truster puts it he didn't want to be saved
it is not a gift if the creator robotically made you to be saved

puppets vs all given the grace to receive.

think relationship
think God rewarding good stewardship

it is not good stewardship if God robotically made you to do everything in your life as a preprogrammed response.
no reward needed then.

basics.
Love, relationship, passion and worship
not stringed puppet made to self worship the Puppet God.


You miss the following :
No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. (*John‬ *6‬:*44‬ ASV)
 

intojoy

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Banned
Oh and by the way for anyone whom cares.

I am relatively new at TOL and this is the first time I have heard of MAD and Open perspective labeling

I don't accept a labeling of any kind.

every 5 years I try to find out what is new trends and issues among the christian communities and reconsider and reassess any of my minor doctrines I have embraced in the past.

35 years if study an experiencing God and His body gives me a grid for this wonderful God capturing and changing of my soul/spirit.

I am not perfect in understanding and am open to any concrete overwhelming argument that may impact prior learned doctrines.

I stay within main themes and hierarchal importance of scripture.
i.e. the main commissions originally given to adam in genesis
i.e. Gods continual love and desire for restoration of man.
i.e Gods continual and numerous desire to use men in the interaction God has upon the earth.
i.e. God using His obedient children in supernatural ways from genesis to revelation.
i.e. bride and bridegroom simile's in how God desires a bride for Jesus.
i.e. romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


I'm saved for 45 years now. My doctrinal understandings have not been moved. Solid on the Rock which is Messiah the God of all creation.
 

Lon

Well-known member
non robotic responses to ensure true relational interaction, that God (desires)

Why be ((angry)) at your puppet robot if you made them to sin and not have the ability to repent.
Even in the secular world, there is an understanding in psychology, between nature and nurture. BF. Skinner and Pavlov, both thought of man as a machine. In fact, they probably didn't do a lot of work with spiritual matters and thus concluded "Man is a machine." While I don't believe they are 100% correct, it would not be correct to assume both meant we are puppets or robots.

Rather, we are slaves. This means we have a master, always. In order to be able to get out from under a master, we have to be enabled to be out from under a master. We are then talking about 'who' specifically Christ paid for, to get out of slavery, and who then, responds.

In a nutshell, the Calvinist says God only pays for slaves who come.
Others believe He paid it all and nobody is any longer really enslaved to the other master.

The problem is, such doesn't matter so why would God do it? Why would He overpay for what is not His? It makes more sense to pay 'when' the slave leaves the other master, not if he/she is going to stay regardless.

Basically, this is the kind of difference we are talking about. Only believer's every walk from one master to God. Our contention is when God paid, not that He did, and how much. Can any slave leave their former master? I think that is the Arminian question. I believe the Calvinist rather, asks, Which of you slaves will come to God? Of all those who attend a Billy Graham Crusade, a little less than 30% come forward.

They couldn't come to Christ up until hearing the gospel. The will is enabled. The rest of unbelievers who didn't come forward have rejected Him but it is not a change in their disposition. They are still slaves to sin, whether you and I agree or disagree if they 'could' be free or not.
 

Word based mystic

New member
You miss the following :
No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. (*John‬ *6‬:*44‬ ASV)

john 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me

This verse is pretty clear, God draws all men through the Gospel, therefore we know that this drawing is not necessarily to salvation. Not everyone is being saved. but everyone has the opportunity to be.

Romans 8:3,4, "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

His (work) enables all to respond through way of repent, believe and receive

not all respond
Gods desire that all men be saved affirms the above that the ((work)) was done to make that possible
yet only to those that knock (an action) will He open the door to.

not willing/desiring that (any) should perish affirms the desire for passionate, free will response to relationship and Love
not strings that force the puppet to worship

relationship is not real if the robot god programmed the robot for every thing the robot will do.

can any of you parents imagine a father creating a child/soul to sin and rebel and then becoming angry and condemning that child to hell for doing the very same thing that child was created to do.
without any chance to repent, believe and receive.
Sick understanding of Fatherly love for His created children.

psalm 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And kind in all His deeds.

Psalm 86:5 For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee

This kind of belief within the doctrine represented shows that there is a lack of comprehending the Love of the Father towards His created children. ephesians 3:16-19
please start comprehending the Fathers love for all His created beings. Then you can be mature and be filled with all the fullness of God. Not just mental knowledge.

relationship desire
desiring freewill passionate love response from His created children.
not puppet robots
 

musterion

Well-known member
Mystic,

Keep in mind there is great comfort in believing one's entire course of life, including whatever faith he comes to, came unhackably preprogrammed from the eternal counsels of God, thus negating even the need for free will. That can be a very comforting thought to those inclined to accept that premise. It's psychological bubble wrap, mind-varnish and The Golden Ticket, all in one.

True grace, on the other hand, and the law-freed liberty in Christ that it entails, can be scary for many and is considered eternally dangerous by just as many.

I try to keep that in mind on TOL and elsewhere because it serves to remind me of why some people want to believe as they do.
 
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Lon

Well-known member
As I was reviewing this question, it became apparent that the analogy used (by me) was forced into a question about God in which the analogy doesn’t belong. There is a category mix-up, and I believe I am at fault for this.
Naw, you are fine. Analogies break down, don't let the break-down ever be the hook against you.

In this case, the problem isn't an imperative ("Breathe!"). The problem is the inability i.e. unless you breathe, you are dead. We are born dead, in your analogy. Babies have to cry to live. A doctor or nurse stimulates the child.

Without Christ, we are totally unable to live. Christ is the met condition to live, for believers.

Romans 1 says every man is culpable, 'because' they know they are sinning. We are born, not with 'good' intact, but a 'good/God indicator' intact.

The analogy question is: Is God just for with-holding ability to breath, in Christ?

No, He didn't cause the malady. Furthermore, not freewill, but a good/God indicator, that knows the difference, makes us culpable for doing that which we ought not, and living as we ought not. Whether Christ provided the remedy for all or a few, is completely beside the point.
The nonCalvinist will object and say it is the point. :nono:

We all are responsible for ourselves alone. It is really none of their business. They are demanding God's blood be shed for all. That is literally, none of our business. If scripture portrays 'all' we need to deal with that in a logical manner, but that too is none of their business. They are responsible for what they believe, alone, regarding a doctrinal stance that is God's alone. As a body, we have to share the gospel, so it is important as a body, to discuss evangelism, but it doesn't change anything. We water, sow, and God gives increase.

In the analogy of the wheat and tares, the Arminian will have Christ's work raining on the just and the unjust. In the Calvinist camp, it would be more akin to God fertilizing only the wheat, knowing the difference, and concerned with His wheat not being choked out by weeds, thus being careful not to cause harm. The rain would fall on the just and the unjust which is Christ's sustaining power (Colossians 1:17). This is very much the way Israel functioned in the land, under judgment. Those around weren't invited in, but converts did come including a whole nation.

When Christ walked the earth, He did draw all men to Him. Many turned away. John 3:16 doesn't say Christ's blood or death, at that point. At that point, Jesus is alive and speaking of Himself. The Calvinist isn't saying Jesus is limited only to the elect, but that atonement is limited.

Only those made right with God (limited) are atoned (made right). That is how I came to limited atonement. I resisted this particular for a very long time, so understand that resistance and empathize.

My endeavor here, is to try and bridge understanding. I understand those who reject it, just trying to ensure that everything is as clear as possible.

-Lon
 

Lon

Well-known member
Mystic,

Keep in mind there is great comfort in believing one's entire course of life, including whatever faith he comes to, came unhackably preprogrammed from the eternal counsels of God, thus negating free will. That can be a very comforting thought to those so inclined to accept that premise. It's psychological bubble wrap, mind-varnish and The Golden Ticket, all in one.

True grace, on the other hand, and the law-freed liberty in Christ that it entails, can be scary for many and is considered eternally dangerous by just as many.

I try to keep that in mind on TOL and elsewhere because it serves to remind me of why some people want to believe as they do.
I believe there is truth to that. Many on TOL either gravitate to Calvinism or MAD because of the nature of God's promises. When I was fretting if I had lost my salvation every day ala Hebrews 6:4 and 1 John 2:3. I wondered then if there was a 'point' after having lost. For me, it was that God was beautiful, even 'if' I was no longer saved. I didn't want to let go, even though I'd feared it was too late. What did I do? As a teen, lusted. Got angry with my siblings and fought. Accidentally cussed calling my cousin a chicken-'dropping', etc. All making me fall short of the glory of God.

What I didn't realize, is that I was falling short 'in' His hand (and I still stumble in many ways, all of them as damnable as another, as far as pertains to the flesh, by an Arminian standard). But I am not reckoned in the flesh and He will never let go.

Many TOL Open Theists are MAD, so you are talking beyond the Calvinist camp on this particular.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I'm not going to review your book for you. Ask me the specific question you want me to answer.
You promised to 'show him' where he was wrong concerning Romans 9. That is the question: Where was he wrong?

I would think you'll have to read his post in order to effectively 'show.' It isn't a whole book though a bit of a longer post but a quick read.

In a nutshell, Romans 8 and 9 mention individuals with nations, thus simply moving the ball to nations of Esau and Jacob yet aren't talking about all of those two nations. That would be similar to saying "America have I loved, Canada, have I hated." It has to necessarily be talking about individuals. In addition, both chapters discuss individuals anyway. Pharoah, was not "Egypt." Chapter 9 is clear then, that God has a right over nations AND individuals, despite protestation.
-Lon
 
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