6days
New member
Yes... believers recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. Your verses do not say they will speak in tongues
ECT 3 Questions for my MAD and YEC friends
- Thread starter patman
- Start date
Yes... believers recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. Your verses do not say they will speak in tongues
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I never said that today anyone is given the power to speak in tongues. Instead, my point is that those who were baptized with water on the day of Pentecost received the "gift of the Holy Spirit," and that gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit was the ability to speak in tongues.
Today there is only one baptism:
"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all" (Eph.4:4-6).
Here is the only baptism for this time:
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Yes, I thought Muz had bought the farm.
Interplanner
Well-known member
There wouldn't be a real episode of tongues unless there were members of Judaism who needed to see that the Gospel is God's mission. There are messianics who need to see that today, and I do wonder if there might be some renewed sign episodes to them to see the same thing. They see or witness this happening; it is not that the message is for them.
patman
Active member
Thank you for the "meaty" reply. There are a lot of really good points in it.
As good as the points are, I am still not 100% convinced that death was not a part of creation. If you think about the number of bugs that would overtake the world, and how even though we might swat at a bug it would not die...
Of course, as you mentioned, many say that death only applies to certain kinds of creatures, so higher forms of life were the only that would not die. Then we can see a world overtaken by mammals that reproduce in large numbers.
I agree with your assessment about Adam and death for humans, but animals...? The numbers and where we draw the line on what counts as an eternal living entity is fuzzy and not well defined by scripture.
If smashing a bug is ok pre-fall, would a snake swallowing a mouse be less of a problem? Would the bug live forever and not be crushed, and the mouse come out of the snake walk out of the snakes digestive system, emerging only grossed out?
I have no doubts that the dynamics of life and death were very different, but with out a specific verse saying "no animals ever died," I am not comfortable with teaching others this aspect of creationism as biblical truth. I can get behind Human's being eternal, and death meaning physical and spiritual as you show with your passages, but that is all I can say is obvious from the passages.
To convince me, I will need something very specific about animals and their being created as eternal beings.
Here is something to consider... God did not mention every single type of animal on the ark, but we know that every type was represented. The account goes on to list very special animals that the Jews would connect with. It makes the narrative more identifiable for those people. Does it mean the animals not mentioned, or even excluded, were not on the ark? No, it just means it wasn't mentioned. If this logic, that exclusion does not mean actually excluded, then it is possible that God's gift of vegetation does not specifically exclude meat. It's possible there is a theological message here instead of scientific one.
That is why I need a verse that clearly defines the diets of pre-fall animals as expressly vegetarian. God could have just not mentioned the full diets; and, when we consider how crowded the world would be if every mouse and every bird ever born would never die, it makes since to think that animals could be eating other animals at some point had the fall never happened.
I don't think this is an evolutionary view of scripture. It's just math, at least from my understanding of this.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Patman, I asked you:
Evidently you do because you said the following about those who lived under the law:
You do not understand the meaning of the verses which you cited. After all, we read the following about "whosoever" believes:
According to this anyone who believes has salvation. But your idea contradict this because according to you the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works. Besides that, Paul says that those who lived under the law are saved by grace through faith:
Of course if it is of works then it cannot be said that it is of grace (Ro.4:4).
Again the Scriptures contradict your idea that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.
Now please address these two verses which I quoted. Next, I will address this verse which you quoted:
First of all, before anyone could be baptized with water they had to first believe (Acts 8:36-37). By the time a person believed he was already saved (Jn.3:16).
Those who had already believed had already had their sins forgiven for salvation (Acts 10:43). The forgiveness of sins which come as a result of being baptized with water is in regard to " fellowship" and not salvation. In the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society David R. Anderson writes:
The gift of the Holy Spirit spoken of at Acts 2:38 is a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit. The "gift" spoken of in that verse is the ability to speak in tongues:
Those who submitted to the rite of water baptism on the day of Pentecost received a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit--the ability to speak in tongues.
So we can see that those who were baptized with water were saved before a drop of water even touched them. Now I await your interpretation of the meaning of John 3:16 and Romans 4:16.
Do you believe like those in the Neo-MAD camp that the Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works?
Evidently you do because you said the following about those who lived under the law:
You do not understand the meaning of the verses which you cited. After all, we read the following about "whosoever" believes:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
According to this anyone who believes has salvation. But your idea contradict this because according to you the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works. Besides that, Paul says that those who lived under the law are saved by grace through faith:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham" (Ro.4:16).
Of course if it is of works then it cannot be said that it is of grace (Ro.4:4).
Again the Scriptures contradict your idea that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.
Now please address these two verses which I quoted. Next, I will address this verse which you quoted:
First of all, before anyone could be baptized with water they had to first believe (Acts 8:36-37). By the time a person believed he was already saved (Jn.3:16).
Those who had already believed had already had their sins forgiven for salvation (Acts 10:43). The forgiveness of sins which come as a result of being baptized with water is in regard to " fellowship" and not salvation. In the Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society David R. Anderson writes:
"We are suggesting that John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter had dual ministries. One was to call the nation of Israel back into fellowship with Yahweh. The covenant relationship had long since been established. The nation of Israel did not need a new relationship with God. But they were sorely lacking in fellowship...John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter were all trying to persuade Israel to repentance and turning that would bring them back to a refreshing fellowship with God...Now as a nation they needed to repent and turn (Acts 3:19) in order to have fellowship with God" [emphasis added] (Anderson, "The National Repentance of Israel," Journal of the Grace Evangelical Society, Autumn 1998, Volume 11:21).
The gift of the Holy Spirit spoken of at Acts 2:38 is a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit. The "gift" spoken of in that verse is the ability to speak in tongues:
"...no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit. There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines" (1 Cor.12:3-4, 8-11).
Those who submitted to the rite of water baptism on the day of Pentecost received a gift bestowed by the Holy Spirit--the ability to speak in tongues.
So we can see that those who were baptized with water were saved before a drop of water even touched them. Now I await your interpretation of the meaning of John 3:16 and Romans 4:16.
Hi and I know that any KJV-only bible believers will never see the Greek grammar in Gal 2:7 where the Greek Article " THE " is used !!
In vwese 7 it reads " THE GOSPEL of the UN- CIRCUMCISION " a Gospel of the Grace of God !!
The next words are " THE CIRCUMCISION " or what Peter preached !
Anyone can check the Greek text and find the ARTICLE and also check Strong's concordance where it let's all know where the word " THE " is used in each verse , it is easy !!
When the Greek article is used it points to a SPECIFIC THING as in Gal 2:7 !!
dan p
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Muz is themuzicman, a great MAD foe from times past. He often tag teamed with godrulz to stamp out the evils of
MAD and KJV only.
6days
New member
We don't know precisely how things worked in the garden of Eden but I don't think bugs would be considered 'nepesh'- living breathing creatures.Patman said:
Strongs says "The*נפשׁ*becomes a living being: by God's breathing*נשׁמת חיים*into the nostrils of its*בשׂר; of man*Genesis 2:7; by implication of animals alsoGenesis 2:19"*
The same could be said for humans if there was no death. God commanded "fill the earth". We don't know how that would have looked if sin had not entered the world.Patman said:
Possible God just didn't mention that meat was ok, sure.*Patman said:
But, consider the wording .....
Prefall
Gen. 1:29,30 "Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.*And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so."
Postfall / post-Flood
Genesis 9:3 "Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."
Appreciated your thoughtful reply Patman
turbosixx
New member
What was the purpose of water baptism and why has it been done away with?
Neither of those two passages he quoted tells you what that baptism is.
One passage relates that there is one baptism. The other passage relates only Who its agent is, and who its participants are.
But neither passage relates either what that baptism is, nor why the one supposedly suffices, if indeed it alone does.
This kind of thing happens when people read into passages either what they learned about a passage from other passages, or when they read their own notions into a passage, or when they have learned said assertions from some external source.
Whether they are right or wrong, they end up at a combination of taking what they are asserting as a given - as if "speaking to the choir" - and or get so caught up in attempting to prove another wrong, that they jump the gun and assert things a passage is not asserting.
Not saying yea or nay, lol, only what the passages relate, as well as what they do not.
Exodus 30
17 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 18 “You shall also make a laver of bronze, with its base also of bronze, for washing. You shall put it between the tabernacle of meeting and the altar. And you shall put water in it, 19 for Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet in water from it. 20 When they go into the tabernacle of meeting, or when they come near the altar to minister, to burn an offering made by fire to the Lord, they shall wash with water, lest they die. 21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, lest they die. And it shall be a statute forever to them—to him and his descendants throughout their generations.”
You must be clean to be before God. Saints in Christ are already clean. Therefore, we do not wash.
turbosixx
New member
Agreed, but how do we get in Christ?
turbosixx
New member
That's usually what I get when I ask about baptism. Everything but passages that tell us about baptism.
turbosixx
New member
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit......41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
Interplanner
Well-known member
I'm not even sure there that Peter meant that those who believed would also start being heard in languages other than their own, but he certainly meant the outpouring of the Spirit in the sense prophesied by so many passages in the major prophets. And of course Joel 2.
turbosixx
New member
From what I've read and understand, only twice in the NT has the Spirit been poured out (baptism with the HS) directly from God. Other than those two instances this is how they received gifts.
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money
Correct me if I'm wrong.