ECT 2P2P and the New Testament

Right Divider

Body part
But you are the people of the doctrine that the nation 'fell'. So you 'special people' fell!!! Which is it? so obviously if Paul and the apostles are Jews but the nation fell, it is a mixed fall!
Are you really this dumb are are you just playing dumb?

Rom 11:11-12 (KJV)
(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (11:12) Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Not everyone IN THE NATION was any unbeliever, but AS A NATION they fell.

NOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULLNESS is their NATIONAL restoration.

Jerry is a total clutz on these things. It even says in Rom 9-11 that he (Paul) is an exception and that God has remnants.

The sooner you can obliterate the idea that races are what God works with , the sooner you will understand the NT.
The sooner that you believe all of the scripture, the less of a dummy you'll be.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Are you really this dumb are are you just playing dumb?

Rom 11:11-12 (KJV)
(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (11:12) Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Not everyone IN THE NATION was any unbeliever, but AS A NATION they fell.

NOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULLNESS is their NATIONAL restoration.


The sooner that you believe all of the scripture, the less of a dummy you'll be.




More self-congratulation without material.

So I supposed 'there is no favoritism with God' is "not Scripture" then?
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
This is exactly why IP and so many other people that don't believe all of the scripture needed to redefine what "Israel" means.




God can still talk about that Israel without being partial to it, because of what it did in the 1st century. There is no where in the NT where God is locked into the lineage going forward. That race (and really all races) are all a matter of %s of purity now anyway, and the end of Rom 11 asks "To whom does God owe anything?"
 

Right Divider

Body part
God can still talk about that Israel without being partial to it, because of what it did in the 1st century. There is no where in the NT where God is locked into the lineage going forward. That race (and really all races) are all a matter of %s of purity now anyway, and the end of Rom 11 asks "To whom does God owe anything?"
I guess that you are blissfully unaware of how many times Israel has been chastised and restored in the past.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
Says a complete dummy.


Was it "favoritism" when God CHOSE Israel and SEPARATED them from the rest of the people of the world?

You are just so dumb.




He was getting them ready for a mission in which their separation would not matter. They needed to be separate as in holy from what Canaanite pagan religions were about. It was never about them as a race. To make the race superior forever. It was prep for the mission that was launched when the Spirit was given as all the 'end-time' prophecies said. 'I will pour out my Spirit in those days.' That was Pentecost and the mission.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
It was prep for the mission that was launched when the Spirit was given as all the 'end-time' prophecies said. 'I will pour out my Spirit in those days.' That was Pentecost and the mission.

So tell me when this prophecy was fulfilled in the past:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more"
(Jer.31:31-34).​

We can see that the "fathers" of those who will belong to the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the future are those who broke the LORD's covenant. It was the physical descendants of Israel who did that. Therefore, since their fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then all those of both houses will also be the physical descendants of Israel.

And all of them, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will have their sins forgiven and be saved. Since this has never happened in the past we know for a fact that the fulfillment of this prophecy remains in the future.

Either explain why we should not believe that the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34 remains in the future or cease from asserting that it has been fulfilled.

In other words, put your money where your mouth is.
 
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Interplanner

Well-known member
So tell me when this prophecy was fulfilled in the past:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more"
(Jer.31:31-34).​

We can see that the "fathers" of those who will belong to the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the future are those who broke the LORD's covenant. It was the physical descendants of Israel who did that. Therefore, since their fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then all those of both houses will also be the physical descendants of Israel.

And all of them, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will have their sins forgiven and be saved. Since this has never happened in the past we know for a fact that the fulfillment of this prophecy remains in the future.

Either explain why we should not believe that the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34 remains in the future or cease from asserting that it has been fulfilled.

In other words, put your money where your mouth is.




They don't get fulfilled with your letter for letter precision. The race of Israel is a genetic mess, anyway. The thing got fulfilled in the Gospel and that's why the least to the greatest would know God through it (the Gospel). Most of the NT passages about the new covenant are for all peoples; the Hebrews quote appears to be the only exception.

You don' t know what fulfilled in Christ means, so you may never get it. For ex, how the resurrection fulfills all that is promised to the fathers, Acts 13.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
God can still talk about that Israel without being partial to it, because of what it did in the 1st century. There is no where in the NT where God is locked into the lineage going forward. That race (and really all races) are all a matter of %s of purity now anyway, and the end of Rom 11 asks "To whom does God owe anything?"

you are wrong as usual .


Rev 21:12 The city had a large, high wall with twelve gates. There were twelve angels at the gates. On each gate was written the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Rev 21:13 There were three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
Rev 21:14 The walls of the city were built on twelve foundation stones. On the stones were written the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
you are wrong as usual .


Rev 21:12 The city had a large, high wall with twelve gates. There were twelve angels at the gates. On each gate was written the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Rev 21:13 There were three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.
Rev 21:14 The walls of the city were built on twelve foundation stones. On the stones were written the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.




And the final opinion on the significance of naming gates is what? I see foundation stones of apostles, and merely names of gates using tribes of Israel. How about a paragraph somewhere by Paul that God favors Israel and owes them something. Because it looks to me like the city symbolizes what the church is: founded on the apostles, but having a decorative attachment to Israel, because it was launched there.
 

Danoh

New member
And the final opinion on the significance of naming gates is what? I see foundation stones of apostles, and merely names of gates using tribes of Israel. How about a paragraph somewhere by Paul that God favors Israel and owes them something. Because it looks to me like the city symbolizes what the church is: founded on the apostles, but having a decorative attachment to Israel, because it was launched there.

Yo - fraud...

Ezekiel 36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. 36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Though to the "books based" fraud like you, that looks like it will never happen; the Scriptural reality is that it is still yet future...to this very day.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

The faith of God - the very basis of His fidelity to His having given HIS Word, is crystal clear obvious, but to the "books based" fraud such as you, Interplanner of books "about" INTO your fool head, in place of Scripture itself

The very basis of His fidelity to the above; despite Israel's obstinance?

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Hunh? What about "the faith OF GOD"!

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Yep - "but as touching the election" - the principle of Israel's yet unborn children.

A lesson concerning Israel's yet future, as old as the same lesson about this, repeated in Hebrews 3.

Hebrews 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

"For the children being not yet born" then - the children of Jacob not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
They don't get fulfilled with your letter for letter precision.

You deny what is so clearly revealed at Jeremiah 31:31-34 by saying that the prophecy doesn't get fulfilled with a letter for letter precision. In other words, you are arguing that the prophecy was fulfilled in an imprecise or inexact way.

Anyone can make the Scriptures say anything that they want them to say by using your ungodly method of interpretation. The sad thing is the fact that you should be ashamed of your inept handlingof the Holy Scriptures but instead you glory in them.

Let us look at the prophecy which you think should be interpretated in an imprecise way:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more"
(Jer.31:31-34).​

We can see that the "fathers" of those who will belong to the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the future are those who broke the LORD's covenant. It was the physical descendants of Israel who did that. Therefore, since their fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then all those of both houses will also be the physical descendants of Israel.

And all of them, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will have their sins forgiven and be saved. Since this has never happened in the past we know for a fact that the fulfillment of this prophecy remains in the future.

According to your imprecise method of interpreting this prophecy is revealing that even though their fathers will be the physical descendants of Israel they will not! Glory in your false teaching because at some point in time your glorying will come to an abrupt halt!

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"
(2 Thess.2:11).​
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
And the final opinion on the significance of naming gates is what? I see foundation stones of apostles, and merely names of gates using tribes of Israel. How about a paragraph somewhere by Paul that God favors Israel and owes them something. Because it looks to me like the city symbolizes what the church is: founded on the apostles, but having a decorative attachment to Israel, because it was launched there.

you are preterist enough to get things wrong.



Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

all about Israel in the end.

Rev 7:4 Then I heard how many people had God's mark on their foreheads. There were 144,000. They were from every tribe of the people of Israel:
Rev 7:5 from the tribe of Judah: 12,000, from the tribe of Reuben: 12,000, from the tribe of Gad: 12,000,
...
Rev 7:8 from the tribe of Zebulun: 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph: 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin: 12,000.

Rev 21:10 The angel carried me away by the Spirit to a very large and high mountain. The angel showed me the holy city, Jerusalem. The city was coming down out of heaven from God.
 

Danoh

New member
Yep.

If anything; God is a God of precision - "of order...as in all the churches of the saints" - 1 Cor. 14:29-33.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And so on, and so forth, and Amen.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
you are preterist enough to get things wrong.



Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

all about Israel in the end.

Rev 7:4 Then I heard how many people had God's mark on their foreheads. There were 144,000. They were from every tribe of the people of Israel:
Rev 7:5 from the tribe of Judah: 12,000, from the tribe of Reuben: 12,000, from the tribe of Gad: 12,000,
...
Rev 7:8 from the tribe of Zebulun: 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph: 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin: 12,000.

Rev 21:10 The angel carried me away by the Spirit to a very large and high mountain. The angel showed me the holy city, Jerusalem. The city was coming down out of heaven from God.




But you are taking a book or document that is filled with symbolism as though it was a NASA sequence. That is not the meaning. There is also the NT's other Israel, God's other people (Mt 22) doing in the vineyard what the first set of workers did not. That other people, it so happens, is called an 'ethne' which used to be what a people-group was called.

You don't understand that the Israel of Rom 11:26 is the cumulative of all believers all through the age. the expression , as you can see, is grounded in "in this manner". The nation of Israel is forever partially hard (always has been, there has never been anything automatic) and the Gentiles come it. Do you ever think about WHAT they come in TO? They come in to the other Israel.

The Jerusalem above is also all believers, as seen in Gal 4 and Heb 12, 13.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
You deny what is so clearly revealed at Jeremiah 31:31-34 by saying that the prophecy doesn't get fulfilled with a letter for letter precision. In other words, you are arguing that the prophecy was fulfilled in an imprecise or inexact way.

Anyone can make the Scriptures say anything that they want them to say by using your ungodly method of interpretation. The sad thing is the fact that you should be ashamed of your inept handlingof the Holy Scriptures but instead you glory in them.

Let us look at the prophecy which you think should be interpretated in an imprecise way:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more"
(Jer.31:31-34).​

We can see that the "fathers" of those who will belong to the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the future are those who broke the LORD's covenant. It was the physical descendants of Israel who did that. Therefore, since their fathers are the physical descendants of Israel then all those of both houses will also be the physical descendants of Israel.

And all of them, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will have their sins forgiven and be saved. Since this has never happened in the past we know for a fact that the fulfillment of this prophecy remains in the future.

According to your imprecise method of interpreting this prophecy is revealing that even though their fathers will be the physical descendants of Israel they will not! Glory in your false teaching because at some point in time your glorying will come to an abrupt halt!

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"
(2 Thess.2:11).​




You continue to violate how the NT uses the OT. You fail. You go back to direct reading even though there are 2500 instances to follow! That's the delusion.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
You continue in your delusion that the prophecies are only fufilled in an imprecise and inexact way:



Who can take your silly ideas seriously?




They are fulfilled in the actions and message and kingdom and mission of Christ. In that sense, there is nothing imprecise about it. What they don't do is have any place for the structures and equipment that Judaism had operated out of for the previous age. They precisely do NOT mean that. It has no place in NT thinking.

Did you not read the thread about Acts 2, 13, 15 and 26 on this?

Do you not know what christ is saying about 'destroy THIS temple, and I will raise in 3 days' and what the says about temples, period?

Silly questions, Jerry.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
The traditional understanding of the accounts of Jesus and apostles letters. Ie, not the old testament books.

RD is totally murky on this, sort of like Jerry on dividing Christ from Christ crucified, but hey, it's in his name to do so. Which is an inaccurate trans to begin with.
 
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