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That's fine...I'm trying to figure out what you're getting at. Sometimes people say they hold to something or reject something, but when they describe it, they are using the wrong label. So you are saying that both thieves got the same things, the same amount of Holy Spirit prompting, and they...

Here's where your view falls apart. It is Calvinism if the one thief that believed had some special extra something from God that allowed him to believe where the other thief did not have that. If you say that both thieves had the same things, the same promptings by the Holy Spirit, or...

That may be so, but Calvinism isn't contradictory on those points, though it is on some others.

Here's Gary's post. Actions can demonstrate something that those actions don't cause. Therefore, Gary's statement about the thief's actions demonstrating the effect caused by Christ's sacrifice is totally valid, and not contradictory.

If he adds nothing, and you don't care what ge thinks or posts, doesn't that make your comments back to his of less worth than his? I think we can officially say that Clete considers his own posts to be of negative value, even in his own estimation. There's a fix for that.

Maybe I don't quite understand what you say I've established. Could you explain? If the king was taken to Babylon for sins he led the nation to commit, and he was freed when he repented, don't you think God used Babylon to chastise him?

Doesn't help much with the John Deere Tractor.

Then it's not the Holy Spirit's influence that made the difference, right? Iow, the Spirit influenced both of them, but one accepted the work of the Spirit, while other rejected the same work of the same Spirit. Do you agree?

Do you think that the influence of the Spirit means he HAD the Spirit? And do you think the other thief had that same influence?

Are you saying a person has to already have the spirit in order to believe?

Most did well, but my dad bought one used that blew a gasket before that extra digit was needed. It was a shame, because I got to drive it some, and it drive well.

You have some good points to make, but you could do better at explaining them. We should always remember that we are explaining our view to someone who not only doesn't agree with it, but also doesn't yet see the path we took getting to our view...not our experiences, mind you, but how we...

"They're boxy, but they're good." Robin Williams

2 Chronicles 33:9-11 KJV — So Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen, whom the LORD had destroyed before the children of Israel. And the LORD spake to Manasseh, and to his people: but they would not hearken. Wherefore the LORD brought upon...

They weren't contradictory.

Obviously not. Just like his point to you. To then go into calling each other names certainly does little to help.

"Made him"? Do you mean "what forced him to become a Christian?"

Correct! The way God punished kings was to bring other nations to rule over them, which put the king under other law systems. But it wasn't part of the Mosaic law.

@JudgeRightly explained it fairly clearly, but you never did. But JR wasn't quite getting @Gary K's point (meaning Gary could have been clearer before getting his own panties in a wad). Here's his post: His point was that the thief's application of salvation to himself (forgiveness of our sins...

Reminded me of the Be Like Bill meme generator: