What happened at Pentecost?

Theo102 said:

I'm not claiming that it was fulfilled.
Your argument is a non sequitur.

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I am glad to hear that

Since it was not a fulfillment, it was a comparison

JudgeRightly said:

Where did I insult you? I asked if you were stupid, I didn't call you stupid, though I'm starting to think you really are.



Are you blind? or just trolling?

Do you not read the posts you respond to or what?

You're also a hypocrite, because not once did you quote any scripture yourself in your post when you accused me of not providing scripture, when I provided multiple passages relevant to the topic.



Yet you won't quote any to defend your position. You only quote a verse or two here and there, and then support it (or attempt to) with your own beliefs on what you think it should say, rather than recognizing what it ACTUALLY says.



Again, where did ANYONE say that the ENTIRE PROPHECY was fulfilled?



And?



And?



And?



You're confusing "prophecy" ('see') with "prophesy" ('sigh').

The former is a noun, the latter a verb.

"Prophesy" means to speak the words of God, something the Twelve clearly did. That is what the prophecy in Joel was about, and it was certainly, at least partly, fulfilled.

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Your wilful ignorance of scripture is not helping your case

That Pentecost was not a fulfillment of scripture is evident by all the differences from Joel's prophecy.

This makes the strong case for it being a comparison of the magnitude of an extended metaphor

​​​​​​God's words and prophecies are always 100% truthful and accurate when we rightly divide it and them

oatmeal said:

Your wilful ignorance of scripture

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I'm the only one between the two of us even quoting Scripture, and you have the gall to accuse me of being willfully ignorant of it?

Shame on you, you false accuser and hypocrite.

is not helping your case

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Ignoring what I say isn't helping yours.

That Pentecost was not a fulfillment of scripture is evident by all the differences from Joel's prophecy.

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Why do you assume a prophecy has to be fulfilled in it's entirety for it to be an actual prophecy?

This makes the strong case for it being a comparison of the magnitude of an extended metaphor

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Ok, let's say it is a metaphor.

What is it a metaphor of? What does it mean? What is Peter's quote of Joel representative or symbolic of? A metaphor is a figure of speech. So, Oatmeal, what is this specific figure of speech talking about?

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God's words and prophecies are always 100% truthful and accurate when we rightly divide it and them

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So God telling Jonah that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days wasn't a prophecy? Last I checked, that prophecy didn't come true. Are you saying that if God's prophecies don't come true, then He's a liar?

oatmeal said:

Since it was not a fulfillment, it was a comparison

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Non sequitur, it wasn't a comparison.

Idolater said:

Yeah, I don't do that. Watch videos you post.

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well then your inquisitional censure has you miss where your emphasis on a multi cultural diverse integrated ecumenical church is recent modern and increasingly rejected...as even your Archbishop Vigano has rejected V2 https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...speaking-87685

That being said the ekklesia that Pentecost was continuing what it was and did when in the wilderness of the OT...both native and foreigner were under ONE law...as made obvious in the Sabbath commandment the only one specifically given to the strangers which were saved and following along within Israel by faith...

Not even a clue, which explains everything else. About you and all the Noncatholics. Not a clue.

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add to that yours thinks we are schismatic and heretic...is why the ongoing counter reformation’s success...Protestants are clueless...His people continue to perish for a lack of knowledge...

Thank you for sharing that! I've never seen the president kneel! Imagine that! Amazing! Everybody always talks about how he's a narcissist but here there's hard evidence, that he's anything but! You think actual narcissists would EVER kneel to anything or Anybody else? Wow. Just, wow. Thank you, again. My view of our president is different now.

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you are most welcome...marxists should be excited to see the commander in chief of the mostest Protestant nation on his knees before a godless image...not even a man...a vicar replacing christ

Just so you know, you not being Catholic, "kneelers" are for the Lord only. We kneel to Him. If ever the pope comes to town, we kneel but on the left knee, not on the right, the right knee is for the Lord and for Him only. But what President Trump is doing, without qualification, is kneeling to the Lord Jesus Christ in that picture.
lain:

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whatever...bow to no one said the angel...and Trump kneels to an idol you mean...

Like I said, I'm too patient to put you right on ignore where you belong. You see there, how my weakness is actually strength? That's a lesson. It's not from me, it's from the Bible, from Paul. You probably know the scripture I'm referring to.

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All the ones he says keep from idolatry?...and not to follow another gospel another christ?...or was that the “first pope” Peter who warned of false worship and wolves

Pope St. John Paul II was dedicated to religious liberty because Catholicism is liberal, and liberals believe in the right to religious liberty, something the Church ought to know quite well by now, since at her start she needed to fight for the right herself (ALL of her martyrs, died justly exercising their human right to religious liberty),

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died justly? LOL...executed by Rome for appearing as a superstitious Jewish sect...the irony...yours later killed “justly“ those that impeded the Roman catholic spirit...

“died justly exercising their right to religious liberty” LOL...dying for not having the religious right to NOT compromise into an ecumenical diverse blood cult...more like...and martyrs continued to “died justly” even later as secular Rome was replaced with church Rome...which persecuted not just the oy veh Jews...

and then at the Reformation she witnessed the rebellion that occurred when the right is not defended!

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and by defended you mean KILLED those who wished to reform (which on indulgences she finally actually did reform...and yet) and worship according to their conscious...a right you claim she gave...LOL

What were you talking about again?

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many things...including your new view of our president kneeling to an idol...one of yours...

And today on the day “we the people“ celebrate a divine Unalienable right given to us by Our Creator to worship as we believe having separated church from state...

which your creator did not give you the same as it is through the church alone salvation comes outside of which there is none...yours is fortunate (or by design) we did allow church to be separate from state as in the minority you had no leverage...is why not able to destroy the system of “we the people” out right and openly yours has instead corrupted the people themselves...Including over $900 million from taxpayers a year to replace protestants with catholic immigrants...

yup you are correct protestants are sadly clueless...having even declared the reformation over...

https://www.ncronline.org/news/500-y...ion-end-schism

Hail victory or something to yours...on a day which at one time gave us a right yours does NOT...the irony 1776 broke the back of the most powerful Protestant nation at the time...

Rev 13 continues...

Idolater said:

What happened at Pentecost was that the One Church was born that day in Jerusalem. Acts 2:9-11 shows the very great diversity of nationalities present that day in Jerusalem. The Church from Day One was integrated, and not segregated.

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So not Matthew 16 this time? Today is Pentecost at many churches.

Nick M said:

So not Matthew 16 this time?

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Pentecost is popularly and customarily celebrated as the Church's metaphorical birthday in Catholicism, but it's not dogma. You don't have to believe the Church was born on Pentecost in AD 33 to be a faithful and practicing in full communion Catholic.

Nick M said:

Today is Pentecost at many churches.

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I'm a faithful and practicing in full communion Catholic. I know it's Pentecost because I don't snooze through Mass.

But even if I did snooze through every Mass, I would still be a faithful and practicing in full communion Catholic, because you just have to attend Mass, you just have to go, you just have to be there. Nobody's walking up and down the aisles checking to make sure your eyes are open. So if you're awake, and you're there, then you know when it's Pentecost, because they tell you when it's Pentecost.

Idolater said:

I'm a faithful and practicing in full communion Catholic.

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What is full communion Catholic, and by logic, a non full communion Catholic? I have heard them utter "Catholics in grace" regarding who can share in the foreshadowing known as the passover.

Nick M said:

What is full communion Catholic

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Simply, it's being able to licitly take Communion. For most people reading this, that means becoming publicly Catholic if you're not already, and like Pastor Bob Enyart, of happy memory, was, if you are already Catholic then you need to go to confession, although, more on that later.¹

Nick M said:

, and by logic, a non full communion Catholic?

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Basically that's a category of Catholics in a state of mortal sin,¹ but also there are non-Catholics who believe in Christ, who are considered on the way to full communion. There is more than one way to be a non full communion Catholic.

Nick M said:

I have heard them utter "Catholics in grace" regarding who can share in the foreshadowing known as the passover.

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If you examine your conscience and you're not guilty of any mortal sin¹ then you're in a state of grace. You're either in mortal sin,¹ or you're in a state of grace, those are the only two options, for the most part. You could be excommunicated I suppose, but I don't know anybody personally who is excommunicated. idk if excommunication is permanent mortal sin,¹ or what. From my reading of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Scripture, it can't be. It's some third thing.


¹ Mortal sin is the charge in an examination of your conscience. You are the prosecution. You are also the defendant. This is the honor system. You are also the jury, and the judge, who authenticates the jury's verdict. This is all my own interpretation of my understanding. The Holy Spirit is your defense attorney, your Advocate. He will defend you against the charge of mortal sin, and He will use both the Scripture and Apostolicity more generally to defend you. Basically with Him as your attorney or Helper, I can't imagine ever being found guilty, but lots of Catholics do not understand their Catechism well enough.

Idolater said:

Simply, it's being able to licitly take Communion. For most people reading this, that means becoming publicly Catholic if you're not already, and like Pastor Bob Enyart, of happy memory, was, if you are already Catholic then you need to go to confession, although, more on that later.¹



Basically that's a category of Catholics in a state of mortal sin,¹ but also there are non-Catholics who believe in Christ, who are considered on the way to full communion. There is more than one way to be a non full communion Catholic.



If you examine your conscience and you're not guilty of any mortal sin¹ then you're in a state of grace. You're either in mortal sin,¹ or you're in a state of grace, those are the only two options, for the most part. You could be excommunicated I suppose, but I don't know anybody personally who is excommunicated. idk if excommunication is permanent mortal sin,¹ or what. From my reading of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Scripture, it can't be. It's some third thing.


¹ Mortal sin is the charge in an examination of your conscience. You are the prosecution. You are also the defendant. This is the honor system. You are also the jury, and the judge, who authenticates the jury's verdict. This is all my own interpretation of my understanding. The Holy Spirit is your defense attorney, your Advocate. He will defend you against the charge of mortal sin, and He will use both the Scripture and Apostolicity more generally to defend you. Basically with Him as your attorney or Helper, I can't imagine ever being found guilty, but lots of Catholics do not understand their Catechism well enough.

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There's a number of things wrong with everything you said here.

But allow me to summarize with a few proverbs and Bible verses:

- “No man should be judge in his own cause.”
- “The fox should not guard the henhouse.”
- “We investigated ourselves and found ourselves free of any wrongdoing.”

That is essentially the system you just described.

You made the sinner the prosecutor, the defendant, the jury, the judge, and the one who authenticates the verdict. At that point, you're not describing confession so much as a man clearing himself in his own courtroom.

Scripture says:
- Trust in the Lord with all your heart,And lean not on your own understanding;
- “The heart is deceitful above all things,And desperately wicked;Who can know it?
- Every way of a man is right in his own eyes,But the Lord weighs the hearts.
- All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,But the Lord weighs the spirits.

Paul himself said:
- For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.

That verse alone is fatal to your whole framework.

Paul had a clear conscience, but he did not treat that as an acquittal. He said the Lord is the judge.

David did not say, “I examined myself and found no mortal sin.” He said:
- Who can understand his errors?Cleanse me from secret faults.
And:
- Search me, O God, and know my heart;Try me, and know my anxieties; And see if there is any wicked way in me,And lead me in the way everlasting.

That's the biblical posture.

Not “I prosecuted myself, defended myself, judged myself, and found myself innocent.”

The Holy Spirit is also not merely a defense attorney whose role is to get you acquitted. Jesus said:
- And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

So yes, the Spirit is our Helper and Advocate. But He is not a loophole generator. He does not help a man lie to himself about his own sin.

And John warns directly against that kind of self-deception:
- If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

No one is denying that a man should examine himself. The problem is pretending that his examination is the last word. Scripture repeatedly warns that a man’s own judgment of himself is exactly where self-deception is most likely to hide.

While self-examination is biblical, self-vindication is not. A man may examine his conscience, but he does not get to make his conscience the supreme court, because the heart is deceitful. Man’s ways seem right in his own eyes. A clear conscience does not justify. The Lord weighs the heart. The Lord judges. The Lord searches. The Lord convicts.

You can call that “examining your conscience,” but once the sinner becomes the judge of his own case, it is hard to see how that ends up as anything more than sanctified self-justification.

Dressing self-acquittal in spiritual language does not make it discernment.