Progressive Disenchantment Atonement

[VladtheDestroyer]

I beg to differ. The wild branches in Romans 11 are not the body of Christ, nor are they gentiles in general. They are the prophetic remnant of Israel.

Note that the wild branches can be cut off again.

I always get this one wrong! I think I get it mixed up with the parable of the fig tree.

 

[Clete]

Nietzsche claimed that Christianity is nihilism, and he was half right. The Christian movement of alienation and disenchantment divides into two paths: nihilism and heavenly participation. It is clear from Jesus' message that he opens the way to both heaven and hell.

I couldn't care less what Nietzche said that Christianity is.

I have never claimed that the world is devoid of meaning.

On the contrary. Your post is still there for everyone to read. I quoted it directly.

My argument is meant to counter both nihilism and hedonism.

Just what is it that you think the word "nihilism" means?

nihilism /nī′ə-lĭz″əm, nē′-/

noun​

1. The doctrine that nothing actually exists or that existence or values are meaningless.
2. Relentless negativity or cynicism suggesting an absence of values or beliefs.

We are called to participate in the heavenly kingdom.

Which tends to contradict "nihilism"!

You adopt the modern, worldly perspective, but from a narrative or mythopoetic standpoint this inevitably flattens the Christian cosmos.

Saying it doesn't make it so, on both counts.

It marks a radical departure from historic Christianity.

But not biblical Christianity, which is the only sort of Christianity that I care anything about.

Heaven has been all but forgotten today.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

The notion that heavenly daimones and angeloi function as intermediaries in the Neoplatonic sense is integral to Christianity; it is already present in Paul.

It flatly is not integral to Christianity. Who taught you this nonsense?

In modernity, however, and especially with the Reformers, the angelic hierarchy was effectively collapsed.

Who cares?

God came to be understood as relating to creation directly, without mediating beings, and in a more causal‑mechanical fashion. This stands in tension with ancient Christianity's emphasis on participation, providence, and a graded order of mediation.

There is no Christianity that is more "ancient" than Biblical Christianity. So, my appeal to antiquity trumps yours.

Both Testaments assume a cosmos structured by angelic mediators.

No, it absolutely does not do any such thing.

Nicaea still allows for participatory, angelic mediation, while Christ alone embodies ontological mediation.

What does the bible allow?

Ever asked that question?

Over time, however, the participatory dimension faded from view, and Christians came to rely almost exclusively on ontological mediation in the Eucharist, where mediation functions chiefly in a therapeutic register.

The Eucharist is not "ontological mediation". The word you're looking for is "idolatry".

On the contrary, I argue that the sacramental life plays no direct role in salvation.

Direct?

"Sacramental life" plays no role at all in salvation - period. At most, such practices are purely and only symbolic in nature and do not actually connect in any ontological way to anything divine, salvific or even sanctificatory, for that matter.

It does, however, have a therapeutic function and protects against the devil's worldly allurements.

Colossians 2:23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

You cannot subdue the flesh by appealing to the flesh and doing fleshly things.

What you dismiss is precisely the position of the Church Fathers, including Paul, who employ participatory language to emphasize the heavenly hierarchy.

Saying it doesn't make it slow.

Central to Christ's message is the kingdom of God, a reality that is not of this world.

Is there anything that you believe about Christianity that is actually biblical?

I think you'll discover that those of us here aren't interested in debating about whatever academic version of Christianity you've been exposed to. All I can tell you is that it isn't real. It isn't biblical and it isn't even rationally coherent. It is, therefore false and entirely moot in regard to actual biblical Christianity, which, in a nut shell is as follows....

• God exists.
• He is the Creator of all things and He is holy, perfect and just.
• We have, by doing evil things, rebelled against God.
• We, having rebelled against the God who gave us life, deserve death.
• God, being unwilling that all should perish, provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ and who is God Himself become flesh.
• Jesus, being Himself innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
• Jesus rose from the dead.
• If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

Colossians 2:23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

There is also Colossians 2:18-19!
Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Nonsense. The Church Fathers never taught that the Church has a different destiny from Israel. They saw one people of God, not two.

Paul never says that Israel gets the earth and the Church gets heaven. There aren't two different homelands; there's only one olive tree (Romans 11).

“One olive tree” does not mean “Israel disappears.” Romans 11 teaches the opposite: “Has God cast away his people? God forbid.” Israel is partially blinded until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, and then “all Israel shall be saved,” because “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” You are using unity in God’s purpose to erase distinctions Scripture preserves. Israel’s promises concern land, throne, nation, and earthly kingdom. The Body of Christ is described by Paul as seated in heavenly places. That is not two gods or two salvations; it is two distinct callings within God’s purpose.

 

[MWinther]

You are reasoning far too materialistically, just as many Christians do today. The universe will be created anew, and in that renewed order material substance will share the very nature of the glorified body. Isaiah speaks explicitly of "new heavens and a new earth" in Isaiah 65:17 and 66:22. Paul points to the same reality in Romans 8:19–23 and 2 Corinthians 5:17, though the exact phrase appears in the New Testament only in Revelation 21:1 (John, not Paul). Paul's closest direct statement is 2 Corinthians 5:1–5, where he describes the new creation and the heavenly dwelling.

In this eschatological vision, the present geopolitical entity called Israel, situated in the modern Middle East, plays no role whatsoever, because everything will be created anew.

 

[MWinther]

The world is no longer a field of divine forces, angelic agencies, or sacred causal chains; it becomes the arena of creaturely action governed by natural law. Disenchantment is therefore not a loss but the metaphysical prerequisite for creation itself. Only when the world is emptied of divine immediacy can human beings be genuine agents who are then called upward into vertical participation—the indwelling Spirit, prayer, and the life of the Kingdom.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You are reasoning far too materialistically, just as many Christians do today. The universe will be created anew, and in that renewed order material substance will share the very nature of the glorified body. Isaiah speaks explicitly of "new heavens and a new earth" in Isaiah 65:17 and 66:22. Paul points to the same reality in Romans 8:19–23 and 2 Corinthians 5:17, though the exact phrase appears in the New Testament only in Revelation 21:1 (John, not Paul). Paul's closest direct statement is 2 Corinthians 5:1–5, where he describes the new creation and the heavenly dwelling.

In this eschatological vision, the present geopolitical entity called Israel, situated in the modern Middle East, plays no role whatsoever, because everything will be created anew.

The world is no longer a field of divine forces, angelic agencies, or sacred causal chains; it becomes the arena of creaturely action governed by natural law. Disenchantment is therefore not a loss but the metaphysical prerequisite for creation itself. Only when the world is emptied of divine immediacy can human beings be genuine agents who are then called upward into vertical participation—the indwelling Spirit, prayer, and the life of the Kingdom.

Who are you talking to?

 

[Right Divider]

Who are you talking to?

Himself.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

Only when the world is emptied of divine immediacy can human beings be genuine agents who are then called upward into vertical participation—the indwelling Spirit, prayer, and the life of the Kingdom.

No. In the Garden of Eden, Adam dwelt directly together with God until he disobeyed Him. You keep ignoring this. Much of the Bible is actually about restoring this type of relationship. The Garden itself could be thought of has the original temple. Or a cosmic "Holy of Holies", if you will. That's why it was entered from the East. Adam is expelled from there and later God instructs the Israelites to build a "new Eden" where the presence of the Lord can dwell in, 10 cubits long by 10 cubits wide and 10 cubits heigh. But this time there are rules involved -only priests are allowed to enter and they must wash themselves first before entering or they will die -having the knowledge of good and evil.

Today, as Christians, we have direct access to dwell with God spiritually through Christ and this is to be our focus while our corrupted physical bodies remain must here in the world, until eventually, mans original, intended relationship with God is restored. That's why the temple disappears in Revelation. One of 7 angels says "Look, I will show you the bride!" (We are the body, Israel is the bride!) and a New Jerusalem descends from Heaven. A garden-like city on top of a mountain, made from precious stones, with running water and a tree that stands on both sides. Describes as being 1,200 stadia long by 1,200 wide and 1,200 stadia high. A cube representing the Holy of Holies -a place where Israel will dwell together with the Lord. We (being the body) have no need for such a place, because in a sense, we are already with Him. We have died and our lives are hidden with Christ.

This is the real "atonement model" that we are actually progressing through today. Right now! And it's nothing like the one you are describing.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

@MWinther do you see? There is no "graded order of mediation" required in setting our minds on Christ over earthly things. We can just do it!

Colossians 3

If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

 

[MWinther]

No. In the Garden of Eden, Adam dwelt directly together with God until he disobeyed Him. You keep ignoring this. Much of the Bible is actually about restoring this type of relationship. The Garden itself could be thought of has the original temple. Or a cosmic "Holy of Holies", if you will. That's why it was entered from the East. Adam is expelled from there and later God instructs the Israelites to build a "new Eden" where the presence of the Lord can dwell in, 10 cubits long by 10 cubits wide and 10 cubits heigh. But this time there are rules involved -only priests are allowed to enter and they must wash themselves first before entering or they will die -having the knowledge of good and evil.

Today, as Christians, we have direct access to dwell with God spiritually through Christ and this is to be our focus while our corrupted physical bodies remain must here in the world, until eventually, mans original, intended relationship with God is restored. That's why the temple disappears in Revelation. One of 7 angels says "Look, I will show you the bride!" (We are the body, Israel is the bride!) and a New Jerusalem descends from Heaven. A garden-like city on top of a mountain, made from precious stones, with running water and a tree that stands on both sides. Describes as being 1,200 stadia long by 1,200 wide and 1,200 stadia high. A cube representing the Holy of Holies -a place where Israel will dwell together with the Lord. We (being the body) have no need for such a place, because in a sense, we are already with Him. We have died and our lives are hidden with Christ.

This is the real "atonement model" that we are actually progressing through today. Right now! And it's nothing like the one you are describing.

It seems the only response you people can muster is a John Cleese-style "No it isn't!" from the "Argument Clinic."

Humanity's original relationship with God will be restored only after the eschatological resurrection. There is no cumulative progress before that moment, because evil is parasitic on the good; as the good increases, evil grows alongside it.

James M. Scott argues in On Earth As In Heaven (2005) that, in the Book of Jubilees, the ultimate goal of history is the restoration of sacred time and sacred space. Earthly rituals must precisely mirror the heavenly cult as recorded on the heavenly tablets. The book therefore maintains not only that earth should reflect heaven, but that the final age will fully re‑create the primordial one, restoring the world to its original, uncorrupted state before Adam's fall.

But this is an eschatological vision, something we cannot progress toward but only ritually enact. The drama in the Garden occurred before any separation existed between God and humanity, when man (Adam) was still a god‑man. We cannot restore our nature to that divine condition.

 

[MWinther]

@MWinther do you see? There is no "graded order of mediation" required in setting our minds on Christ over earthly things. We can just do it!

Colossians 3

If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Paul is speaking here about moral conduct. As the Reformers made clear, this does not bring us any closer to God. That view is works‑righteousness, and the Reformers explicitly rejected it. Of course we are to follow the moral law written on the heart, but we must also submit to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, who is not interested in our moral self‑presentation or our attempts at uprightness.

 

[VladtheDestroyer]

You are reasoning far too materialistically, just as many Christians do today.

You are the one who keeps focuses on what people say, instead of what God's Word says.

James M. Scott argues..

I don't care what he said.

As the Reformers made clear..

I don't care what they say.

this is an eschatological vision, something we cannot progress toward but only ritually enact.

Our growth in our relationship with Jesus Christ is real. It isn't a ritual.

Human beings nevertheless retain an archaic, pre‑reflective drive for participation and enchantment.

Yet we are rejecting the remedy you prescribe. Shouldn't I be longing for it, instead? Nothing you say adds up.

You could just admit you have made a mistake, instead of just ignoring what we are telling you. Nobody is perfect, you know..