Catholicism vs. Biblical Christianity

[Nick M]

No, just that death is a result of sin (sin's wages). If disease and illness lead to death without sin, but they are the result of Adam's sin, then you are agreeing with at least some of those who hold to an "original sin" construct.

The only issue I have is that they roll 'infant baptism" into it. Romans 5 is straight forward, the most of the Bible. There is original sin by Adam, and death to all because of it.

 

[Derf]

The only issue I have is that they roll 'infant baptism" into it. Romans 5 is straight forward, the rest of the Bible. There is original sin by Adam, and death to all because of it.

Agreed. It's as if the death of Christ only covers Adam's sin, or all past sins of the baby's ancestors, and the baby, as he grows, has to do penance to pay for the rest of his sins.

 

[Nick M]

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

 

[Clete]

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

You highlight the wrong portion of that verse.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

The doctrine of Original sin is blasphemy, Nick! God DOES NOT hold a child guilty of his parent's sin.

Ezekiel 18:19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

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Whatever consequences of sin were passed from Adam to the rest of his race was dealt with at the cross and God knew in advance that He would be dealing with that aspect of Adam's rebellion in that manner. Otherwise, He would never had permitted Adam and Eve to reproduce at all. He'd have simply ended their lives then and there.

 

[Idolater]

Reminder for me, too, to come back and look here, but it will likely be over a week.

Same. Waiting for something interesting to get discussed. Everything so far has been really boring, starting with the obv illogical thread title, begging the question ofc, that Catholicism ISN'T Biblical Christianity, which is begging the question.

Like there IS NO "vs" lol. Catholicism IS Biblical Christianity.

 

[Nick M]

You highlight the wrong portion of that verse.

The question is are people condemned in the concept of original sin, as they call it. Paul seems to say so.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Of course he also says death entered through Adam and spread to all because all sinned. So it doesn’t really matter, however he says everybody is condemned because of Adam.

Romans chapters 5 and 6 are arguably the most important in the Bible for us today.

 

[Clete]

The question is are people condemned in the concept of original sin, as they call it. Paul seems to say so.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Of course he also says death entered through Adam and spread to all because all sinned. So it doesn’t really matter, however he says everybody is condemned because of Adam.

Romans chapters 5 and 6 are arguably the most important in the Bible for us today.

I just showed you PROOF otherwise, Nick, including from Paul's own writing.

Look at the passage you yourself just cited. The eight words that immediately precede the verse you quoted....

"sin is not imputed when there is no law. "

God is just. That is all you need know in order to toss "Original Sin" out the window. Just forget it. It's false! Romans 5 teaches the opposite of the doctrine of Original Sin! It's about what God did to undo the problems inherited from Adam. They are universally applied such that no one will ever be punished by God for any sin other than that which they themselves have committed.

That isn't to say there weren't any consequences for Adam's race that came because of his rebellion, which Romans 5 does discuss but none of it has to do with God holding people, especially babies, guilty of sins that they did not commit. That would be a mockery of justice and it would blatantly contradict not just God's word but the actual words that came out of God's own mouth...

Ezekiel 18:19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

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21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?​

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24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.​

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25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?​

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30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”​

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(I could have quoted the entire chapter. This specific issue is what it talks about from beginning to end.)​

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The choice you're left with is this....

Is the doctrine of "Original Sin", which no one believed at all prior to Augustine, true?

OR

Is the bible's depictions of a just God true.


It's either Augustinian doctrine or Christianity.

The third and only other alternative is that they are both false.

 

[Clete]

Like there IS NO "vs" lol. Catholicism IS Biblical Christianity.

This idiotic claim is false by Catholicism's OWN standard!

Just one of 551,217 examples....

• Scripture (affirmed by Catholicism as God's Word):
  

  “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
  (Romans 5:1, NKJV)

• Catholic Doctrine (Council of Trent, Canon 9):
  

  “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone... let him be anathema.”

 

[Derf]

Same. Waiting for something interesting to get discussed. Everything so far has been really boring, starting with the obv illogical thread title, begging the question ofc, that Catholicism ISN'T Biblical Christianity, which is begging the question.

Like there IS NO "vs" lol. Catholicism IS Biblical Christianity.

It seems there are some "vs". Like:
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" vs "Mary was sinless from conception".

 

[Servant1]

Consider the following basic Christian concepts...

1. God exists.
2. God is personal, living, moral, and rational.
3. God created the world and created mankind in His image.
4. There is objective right and wrong, rooted in God's nature.
5. Humans have free will and moral responsibility.
6. Sin is a personal, moral choice that results in spiritual death.
7. We are not born guilty; guilt comes from our own sin.
8. Jesus Christ is the incarnate Logos who died and rose again to offer life.
9. Salvation is by grace and requires a free, personal response of trust and faith.
10. Believers live in ongoing relationship with God through faith, love, and obedience.

Those ten points should be accepted universally by anyone who believes in BIBLICAL Christianity. The degree to which one diverges from them is the degree to which one’s theology has been influenced by extra-biblical traditions, philosophical distortions, or human systems of thought rather than the plain reading of Scripture and sound reason.

So where are the Catholics in this regard?

Points 1-3: I'd have to say that there's no appreciable divergence at all on these points. They seem to affirm all three.

Points 4-5: Here is where their divergence begins:
Catholicism officially affirms free will and moral accountability, but it also introduces the idea of "concupiscence" (i.e. a weakened will due to inherited sin) which blurs the line between moral capacity and inherited condition, thereby undermining God's just character.

Points 6-7: There is major divergence on these two points:
Catholicism teaches original sin as inherited guilt and a state of spiritual death from birth. This is where the Augustinian (i.e. Greek philosophy: Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Plotinus, et al) influence takes over. Catholicism views infants as in "need of the new birth in Baptism", which contradicts the biblical teaching that sin is not inherited but chosen (Ezekiel 18).

Points 8-9: Catastrophic divergence:
Catholicism affirms Christ's death and resurrection, but it adds sacramentalism, which is the idea that grace is dispensed through the Church’s rituals (especially infant baptism, confession, and Eucharist). This turns salvation into a mediated, institutional process rather than a direct, relational response to God.

Point 10: Totally divergent trajectory!:
Catholicism emphasizes merit, penance, indulgences, purgatory, and ultimately makes salvation something that must be maintained through Church-prescribed means. While they use biblical language (grace, faith, works), the system undermines the simplicity of biblical trust in Christ to the point that it bares little real resemblance in either belief or practice.


Let's put some numbers to it. I started to do this with the identical ten points but it gets complicated because there are various flavors of Catholicism (Augustinian, Jesuit, etc) and so I just sort of winged it here a bit and basically ignored issues like Augustinian predestination. Had I not done so, the score would be much lower.

On a scale from 1 to 10 (These are subjective, of course, and I've intentionally been generous.)....

1. God exists: Fully affirmed without caveat.
Score: 10
2. God is the Creator of all: Unreservedly affirmed in Catholic dogma.
Score: 10
3. Man is made in God’s image: Affirmed, but Catholic anthropology is marred by original-sin guilt from conception.
Score: 7
4. Man has a conscience and is morally accountable: Catholicism teaches both personal sin and concupiscence. A weakened will clouds full moral accountability until sacramental restoration.
Score: 5
5. Jesus is the sinless Son of God who died and rose again. Dogmatically identical.
Score: 10
6. Man is spiritually alive until he sins: Flatly denied. Catholicism holds all are born spiritually dead.
Score: 0
7. When one sins, they die spiritually and need salvation: They affirm need for salvation, but only on top of inherited need. The trigger (personal sin) is buried under original-sin presupposition.
Score: 2
8. Salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone: While Christ is central, grace is only conveyed through Church and sacraments, so it’s never “Christ alone” in practice.
Score: 3
9. God calls all people to repent and believe: The biblical call exists, but is administered through infant baptism, confirmation, penance, etc., making the call mediated rather than direct.
Score: 3
10. Those who trust in Christ are forgiven and have eternal life: Forgiveness and eternal life are potential but require ongoing sacramental cooperation; assurance is explicitly denied.
Score: 2

That's 52 out of 100.

That's a failing score in any school I ever attended!

Few understand grace--Many believe its automatic if they believe, but that is not a truth.
Grace= All sin and none deserve eternal life. All deserve death. Yet Jesus promised some will never taste death. Who are these?=The ones brought through the tribulation and Armageddon may never taste death. Members of the little flock bought from the Earth during the tribulation will never taste death.
Those deserve death since Gods judgement for sin= death, but they will get grace-Why? The #1 reason why is because they live now 24/7-365 doing Jesus' Fathers will( Matt 7:21) over self, just as Jesus does, in this satan ruled system of things. Not such an easy task to do. Its those who God declares righteous even though they still sin. They learn, apply, and obey= Every utterance from God to the best of their abilty as Jesus teaches=Man must live by Every utterance.
These trust in Christ( Matt 7:21-23) yet will hear those words as judgement.

Thus Catholicism and all her branches( protestants) fail 100%

 

[Right Divider]

Thus Catholicism and all her branches( protestants) fail 100%

You're not playing with a full deck.

 

[Servant1]

You're not playing with a full deck.

Its proven fact-Catholicism altered the bible in the 4th century to fit their false council teachings. The only translating left when the protestants translated was Catholicism translating( Latin Vulgate--Codex sinacticus)= both 4th century works)-- The protestants tried to fix things bgut had no clue as to the alterations that prevented them from fixing the errors in teachings.