Idolater
"Foundation of the World" Dispensationalist χρ
That's all I was sayin.
Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?
- Thread starter Poly
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ttruscott
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This question betrays a great gap in the understanding of GOD's love and the reason, ie, HIS purpose, the heavenly marriage, that HE created us to fulfill.
It is as wrong as the level of misunderstanding that would suggest Satan is one of the Divine Persons of the trinity.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Not just Calvinists... I am a die-hard anti-Calvinist and have had Beloved57 on ignore for years but I accept that these two sentences are true or the word predestination has no meaning.
Arial
Active member
Unsubstantiated declaration.
Is 46:9-11 Remember the former things of old, for I am God and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring tge the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure. Calling a bird of prey form the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country, indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.
Manipulating? Really? See above scripture. It says He DOES it.
That is exactly what Polly and GD and M and Clete did to Beloved 57 and by extension all who do not believe as you and they do. However I did not call into question Polly's faith. I called into question her remark to B57, since she IS a Christian (as far as I know). I did not even do it because it challenged my theology. Pay attention before you go all accusatory.
Many people say they used to be Calvinist and many people say they understand it completely, then say things that show clearly (to one who does understand it, because I asked the question "what if" and wasn't afraid to look and look deeply) that they do not understand it at all. Rather they saw God presented in a way they were not willing to accept if it were true, and so they didn't. They returned to a God which they basically made in a image more to their liking and more controllable. Nevertheless, it is not necessary to see or understand it----God remembers that we are made of dust.
Where does Christ tell us to judge PEOPLE? He tells us to judge teaching. And you are judging other's beliefs strictly according to and by your own, and condemning them to hell if they don't line up with yours. And those beliefs of yours which you judge and condemn by are most of the time in no way connected to salvation. Such as the beliefs of those who agree with the sovereignty of God in salvation and those who do not agree with your MAD doctrine.
Do you know that BTK confessed with his mouth the Lord Jesus? And are you able to look into his heart and see what He believed? His repeated unrepentant actions declare that he was never joined to Christ----(continued below)
or what position he held in what church. Not to mention a great many Lutheran churches as well as "Calvinist" churches, are as watered down and as unconcerned about doctrine as most other churches, including Methodist, many Baptist and almost 100% of non-denominational churches. That is why neither shepherd or sheep recognize a wolf, even when he doesn't bother to wear his sheep's clothing.
ttruscott
Well-known member
...which would tend to imply that their predetermined fate was based upon their free will choices and decisions and NOT without condition nor reason as Calvin suggested.
They chose their eternal relationship with YHWH and HE chose their eternal fate as the perfect moral response to their free will choices.
Arial
Active member
No they don't.
They already didn't believe in Him. They were born that way---born in Adam.Thank God we can accept that grace.
Thank God we can turn from sin.
Arial
Active member
Well that is what happens when people jump to conclusions, and the worst case scenario (or most convenient one) at that.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Yes, this is the Calvinist mistake, knowing a little theology but nothing about HIS loving nature...believing sovereignty trumps love but it in fact must conform to love, righteousness and justice. Sovereignty does not mean that if HE chooses to do something it then conforms to HIS loving righteousness but rather that HIS sovereignty must conform to HIS nature of loving and righteous.
The reason some were chosen, elected, to be saved and others were passed over for such election and left to hell had to have been based upon their free will faith based choice as love, righteous and justice would never do it any other way.
But to blatantly deny the meaning of election, predestination and the predetermination of our lives as so clearly stated is also very dismaying. Calvin got it wrong but the answers given by others often doesn't seem to fit proper hermeneutics.
Arial
Active member
Yup. And it doesn't matter how we think that came about. It is what we believe about Jesus that determines a person's salvation.
Arial
Active member
I don't know what Calvin suggested. If God does something, i.e. electing some to salvation, it is not without reason. Reformed teaching does not say there is no reason, it says there is a reason within God, but that reason is not something about us, (our goodness or that we deserve it for some reason. We are all in the same boat. We are all sinners.
Arial
Active member
That is what you say, but it is not what Reformed theology teaches. It says no one will believe because they do not want to, unless God regenerates them (the new birth). We are by nature at enmity with God. We may want Him to exist as the master solver of all our problems when we are in a trouble for which we can find no escape on our own, or for any number of reasons. We do not want Him to take away all those things we desire that are opposed to Him and tell us what we should and shouldn't do.
We do not want Him or anyone else to be Lord of our life.
Poly
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Did God not determine that they be born that way? Born in Adam?No they don't.
Arial
Active member
I do not know what B57 believes in that regard. But it is not what Reformed theology teaches. A person is born a non believer in the sense that we are all born with the propensity to sin (and will sin). And are at enmity with God. Reformed teaches that a person will remain an unbeliever at every point in his life unless God quickens him giving him a new heart, one that now desires God and leans on Christ.
This type of remark shows up often in your posts, you relying on Clete and praising him. Are you both the same person? The one being freed by alias to be the more brutal of the two?
If a person is smart enough, wise enough, humble enough, good enough, to make a choice to believe and trust in Jesus, that came from them. They became the deciding factor in their salvation. No matter what gorgeous and humble looking clothes you clothe it in.
You are the one saying what one believes on this subject determines whether a person is saved or not. Not me. I have said the opposite.
It would be presumptuous to say such as your second sentence if there was no support for it in scripture. If there is such support (whether rightly interpreted or not) in scripture, it is simply telling the truth.
Eph 1:5 Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will."
Arial
Active member
Actually Adam did?
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They have a completely false definition of "sovereignty".
ttruscott
Well-known member
I agree. HIS reason is accepted by Calvinists as apparently not based upon any condition found in us to accept us or to reject us but to play this unfathomable card is unfathomable in itself giving the fact of HIS nature e benevolent, loving, righteous and just.
Our salvation had to be outside of any condition found in us because we are all lost in enslavement to sin but our election pre-sinfulness had to have been chosen by us to fit the self revelation of HIS nature.
Are you not glad we don't have to remain "sinners"?
ttruscott
Well-known member
This is impossible to avoid without massive doublethink, accepting that opposites can be true at the same time...that HE predetermined all things yet is not responsible for our being created evil by having us created in Adam's sinfulness.
