Derf
Well-known member
B57 cannot understand a lot of things, since he was predestined from before the world began to be a moron.
He is the propitiation for our sins:
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beloved57
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You off !
Derf
Well-known member
Eh?
beloved57
Well-known member
Yeah you off !
Derf
Well-known member
What does that even mean? Or are you agreeing with me? I can’t tell. Maybe if you would try it with a complete sentence, it would help.
Or if you can’t refute what I’m saying, maybe you shouldn’t be trying to get people, who you say have absolutely no ability to agree with you unless they already agree with you, to agree with you.
beloved57
Well-known member
I dont have time for this.
Derf
Well-known member
There’s no amount time that would suffice, so I can see why you’d say that.
beloved57
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1 Jn 2:1-2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This portion of holy writ has like its counterpart Jn 3:16 been so mishandled by religionists and frankly has denied what propitiation is. It by no means applies to everyone without exception, for it cant, since Gods wrath is upon many Jn 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
The wrath of God here is abiding[present tense] on these individuals, which contradicts the truth of propitiation, which appeases Gods anger or wrath, by the sacrifice of Christ !
But scripture interprets scripture in this matter, and the very same writer gives us understanding here in Jn 11:49-52
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
The words of this high priest is very instructive:
The words "He should die for" harmonizes Johns words in 1 Jn 2 "He is the propitiation for" This aids us in showing a scriptural image of who Christ was a propitiation for in 1 Jn 2:2 by correlating " He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ! " with what is written in Jn 11:51-52
he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
So in making this correlation in scripture explaining scripture , we should see definitely that the whole world encompass the Children of God in national Israel and those among the gentiles scattered abroad. So using scripture to provide meaning to scripture, the whole world denotes the children of God amongst the nation of israel and the children of God amongst the other nations.
His death should gather together in one, similar to what Paul writes Eph 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And Jesus own words Jn 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
This portion of holy writ has like its counterpart Jn 3:16 been so mishandled by religionists and frankly has denied what propitiation is. It by no means applies to everyone without exception, for it cant, since Gods wrath is upon many Jn 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
The wrath of God here is abiding[present tense] on these individuals, which contradicts the truth of propitiation, which appeases Gods anger or wrath, by the sacrifice of Christ !
But scripture interprets scripture in this matter, and the very same writer gives us understanding here in Jn 11:49-52
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
The words of this high priest is very instructive:
The words "He should die for" harmonizes Johns words in 1 Jn 2 "He is the propitiation for" This aids us in showing a scriptural image of who Christ was a propitiation for in 1 Jn 2:2 by correlating " He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world ! " with what is written in Jn 11:51-52
he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
So in making this correlation in scripture explaining scripture , we should see definitely that the whole world encompass the Children of God in national Israel and those among the gentiles scattered abroad. So using scripture to provide meaning to scripture, the whole world denotes the children of God amongst the nation of israel and the children of God amongst the other nations.
His death should gather together in one, similar to what Paul writes Eph 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And Jesus own words Jn 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Derf
Well-known member
John 11:50 has Caiaphas using “whole” with “nation” in a similar way that “whole” goes with “world” in 1John 2:2. It means entire or all of. So your own passages refute your interpretation.
But just because Jesus died for the whole world, doesn’t mean He’s going to gather the whole world. Those are two separate concepts. Why would He gather to Himself those that don’t acknowledge Him as Lord?
Nanja
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Most assuredly my Brother !
beloved57
Well-known member
Once again, if people understood exactly what propitiation means, its would be clear that 1 Jn 2:2 couldn't apply to everyone without exception. To say so just manifest willful denseness of biblical truth. They dont understand that Christs death/blood satisficed, put an end to Gods Wrath against them. In fact it completely reconciled them to God Rom 5:10. This is what propitiation details. Gods demand for punishment for their sins have been met, sins have come to a end Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
That word reconciliation means propitiate as well and as you can see its grouped with making an end of sins !
The hebrew word kapar also denotes a purging away of sins Ps 79:9
Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
Again thats the same word for reconciliation in Dan 9:24 which also means to propitiate, to make an end of sins. All these things are in the biblical meaning of propitiation in 1 Jn 2:2. Christ by His death alone, for them He died, purged away their sins Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Thats propitiation, thats salvation from sin Matt 1:21 !
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
That word reconciliation means propitiate as well and as you can see its grouped with making an end of sins !
The hebrew word kapar also denotes a purging away of sins Ps 79:9
Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
Again thats the same word for reconciliation in Dan 9:24 which also means to propitiate, to make an end of sins. All these things are in the biblical meaning of propitiation in 1 Jn 2:2. Christ by His death alone, for them He died, purged away their sins Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Thats propitiation, thats salvation from sin Matt 1:21 !
God's message to Christians in 1 John 2:2 - 'Jesus is not only the propitiation for our sins but He is also the propitiation for the sins of the whole world so that there is no excuse for anyone going to hell apart from their willful rejection of Jesus.'
beloved57
Well-known member
You dont pay attention to nothing i stated with scripture.
I hardly think I should pay attention to bad doctrine and mangled attempts at interpreting Scriptures.
beloved57
Well-known member
You not paying attention to what I took time to explain about propitiation with scripture.
Derf
Well-known member
He answered your post. That means he paid attention to it.
Jesus was not just the propitiation for our sins only but He was also the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
beloved57
Well-known member
Its illogical and senseless to read into 1 Jn 2:2 that Christ is the propitiation to God for the whole world of individuals since its purpose was to eliminate Gods anger. So in fact Christs death propitiated Gods righteous anger, rendering Him a gracious favorable disposition for everyone Christ died. But yet we know His Holy Wrath is against many Jn 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Now if Christ has propitiated God for them, that's a contradiction in God which we know isn't possible !
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Now if Christ has propitiated God for them, that's a contradiction in God which we know isn't possible !
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. - 1 John 2:1-2 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John2:1-2&version=NKJV
I just take it exactly as it says, that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
No qualifiers needed, and no reading anything into it at all.
If you ask a 3-year-old what the verse says, that's exactly what he'll tell you it says.
The only contradiction arises when you read calvinism's principles into scripture.
Derf
Well-known member
But what is the reason for God’s wrath? Isn’t it because they have rejected the Son of God, and His sacrifice, not just of His life, but He BECAME human forever.
If I did that for someone, and they rejected it, I’d be pretty angry, too. So His wrath is not just for disobedience, which warrants death, but for not accepting the free gift of salvation AFTER it has been applied to their account.
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