Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

[godrulz]

*
Your statement is one of the shortest direct contradiction in terms I've ever seen.

I suppose black is white is shorter.

Perhaps the problem is your lack of understanding. My wording is also not infallible like the original autographs of Scripture.

 

[godrulz]

There is coming a day when time will be no more, God who created it for a purpose will dispense with it.

Sheer assumption...the bad KJV proof text actually says that there will be no more delay, not no more time.

 

[Aimiel]

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And he swore by him who lives to the eternity of eternities, him who created Heaven and that which is in it, and The Earth, and that which is in it: “Time shall be no more.”

 

[godrulz]

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And he swore by him who lives to the eternity of eternities, him who created Heaven and that which is in it, and The Earth, and that which is in it: “Time shall be no more.”

You are ignoring many more versions that are not obscure (the NT was not written in Aramaic, but Koine Greek) that beg to differ. As well, even as it stands, the context gives clues about the interpretative meaning. Many credible Greek scholars give valid reasons against your understanding of this unknown version.

 

[Aletheia]

I'd like to see the verse stating God is outside of time.

Anyone?

Anyone?

 

[Aimiel]

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[godrulz]

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Is. 46 and 48 context clearly shows that the issue of foreknowledge relates to God's ABILITY, not a supposed crystal ball-like prescience. It is also a specific context about specific things and cannot be extrapolated to exhaustive definite FK of all future free will contingencies without proof texting/eisegesis.

Rev. 13:8 has textual variants (translation) and is also subject to interpretation. In one variant, the names are written one by one as people believe chronologically (not written before their choices in eternity past). In the other variant, the Lamb was not literally slain until the first century, so it expresses certainty of the event in advance once the Fall made the potential, contingent plan of redemption certain/necessary (but still not actualized for centuries, so Lamb was not on cross before incarnation!). Reading timeless views into the text is not warranted and simply proof texting a wrong preconceived idea (vs sound exegesis).

 

[Aimiel]

I see God as knowing, not having to wait to see what WE might decide. He already knows what we will decide. He is God, not a wait-and-see kinda' guy; but Omniscient.

 

[godrulz]

I see God as knowing, not having to wait to see what WE might decide. He already knows what we will decide. He is God, not a wait-and-see kinda' guy; but Omniscient.

God IS omniscient, but the future is not there to be an object of certain knowledge. If an agent makes choices, you have God knowing these choices even before the agent exists to freely make them. This is nonsensical and only explainable if God predetermines fatalistically what they will choose. Assuming simple foreknowledge (Arminian), middle knowledge (Molinism), determinism (Calvinism) is problematic and not provable logically and biblically. Assuming eternal now theories, sci-fi views of 'back to the future', etc. might placate yourself, but are they really biblical/logical? I think not, based on evidence.

 

[Aimiel]

Because God knows what we'll do doesn't take away our freewill. He didn't determine what we'd choose, He just saw it all before creation was begun, since He really IS Omniscient. Your answer is what is nonsense. :duh:

 

[godrulz]

Because God knows what we'll do doesn't take away our freewill. He didn't determine what we'd choose, He just saw it all before creation was begun, since He really IS Omniscient. Your answer is what is nonsense. :duh:

Yes, God is omniscient, but the future is non-existent, so He knows the reality of possibilities and knows things as anticipatory vs actual. You have choices being settled before the agent exists to make them. When God contemplates the future, He does not see all the Superbowls as played out from eternity past. This is a logical absurdity and not a compromise of omniscience. God does not know where Yoda is and that does not make him not omniscient. God cannot make a rock too heavy too lift, but that does not mean He is not omnipotent.

You uncritically accept tradition without realizing how problematic it is and how strong alternate views are.

 

[Lighthouse]

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Neither of those verses give any indication that God exhaustively, or definitively, knows the future.

Isa 46:10 tells us He declares, not simply knows, and it doesn't specify the the beginning and end of what.

And Rev 17:8 shows that "the Lamb slain" is not the object of "from the foundation of the world" in Rev 13:8. And "from" means "since," in the respect that it refers to those whose names have not been written in the Book over time.

Rev. 13:8 has textual variants (translation) and is also subject to interpretation. In one variant, the names are written one by one as people believe chronologically (not written before their choices in eternity past). In the other variant, the Lamb was not literally slain until the first century, so it expresses certainty of the event in advance once the Fall made the potential, contingent plan of redemption certain/necessary (but still not actualized for centuries, so Lamb was not on cross before incarnation!). Reading timeless views into the text is not warranted and simply proof texting a wrong preconceived idea (vs sound exegesis).

You forgot about Rev 17:8

I see God as knowing, not having to wait to see what WE might decide. He already knows what we will decide. He is God, not a wait-and-see kinda' guy; but Omniscient.

Scripture?

Why did God bring the animals to Adam to see what he would name them if He already knew?

Because God knows what we'll do doesn't take away our freewill. He didn't determine what we'd choose, He just saw it all before creation was begun, since He really IS Omniscient. Your answer is what is nonsense. :duh:

How does it not take away our freedom of will? Can you choose differently than what He already knows?

 

[Aimiel]

Yes, God is omniscient, but the future is non-existent, so He knows the reality of possibilities and knows things as anticipatory vs actual. You have choices being settled before the agent exists to make them. When God contemplates the future, He does not see all the Superbowls as played out from eternity past. This is a logical absurdity and not a compromise of omniscience. God does not know where Yoda is and that does not make him not omniscient. God cannot make a rock too heavy too lift, but that does not mean He is not omnipotent.

You uncritically accept tradition without realizing how problematic it is and how strong alternate views are.

Your answer is nonsense. You simply believe that God isn't great enough to know everything before it happens... it might seem impossible to you, but the impossible is simple to God. God knew the end from the beginning, whether your 'logical' mind can understand His Greatness or not.

 

[Aimiel]

Neither of those verses give any indication that God exhaustively, or definitively, knows the future.

I disagree, obviously.

Isa 46:10 tells us He declares, not simply knows, and it doesn't specify the the beginning and end of what.

I believe that God is so great that He knows the end of EVERYTHING before time began.

And Rev 17:8 shows that "the Lamb slain" is not the object of "from the foundation of the world" in Rev 13:8. And "from" means "since," in the respect that it refers to those whose names have not been written in the Book over time.

Why did God bring the animals to Adam to see what he would name them if He already knew?

Because Adam named them. God knowing what a man will do doesn't preclude his freedom to do so. Adam doesn't see the future, except God reveals it to him.

How does it not take away our freedom of will? Can you choose differently than what He already knows?

Sorry, but I can't prove a negative. How does that take away our freedom? We make choices, but God already knows what we will choose. He knows, but He doesn't reveal what He knows, unless it would benefit men to know.

 

[sky.]

Are you going to attempt to answer my question as to whether or not it is possible for me to meet my future self?

:dizzy:

Didn't you already meet yourself?

 

[sky.]

Why did God bring the animals to Adam to see what he would name them if He already knew?

God INCLUDES us in His plan. What do you think God was busy making sure the clouds stayed in the sky so He gave the reins to Adam for a minute?

Job 37:16

16 Do you know how the clouds are balanced,
Those wondrous works of Him who is perfect in knowledge?


Job 36:4
4 For truly my words are not false;
One who is perfect in knowledge is with you.



Psalms 147:5
5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power;
His understanding is infinite.



1 John 3:20

20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

 

[godrulz]

Your answer is nonsense. You simply believe that God isn't great enough to know everything before it happens... it might seem impossible to you, but the impossible is simple to God. God knew the end from the beginning, whether your 'logical' mind can understand His Greatness or not.

Is. 46 is a specific context and says God knows these things because of His ability to bring them to pass, not because of time travel, foreknowledge, etc. Calvinists are wrong to think that God knows all things because He determines them (though that would be a valid explanation if it was true), while you resort to time theories or beg the question with tradition and SFK despite the logical/biblical problems. Open Theism gets it right by affirming the two motifs that God settles and knows somethings, while other things are unsettled and known as possibilities until they become objects of knowledge. This is God's chosen reality, not a diminishing of God.

 

[godrulz]

God INCLUDES us in His plan. What do you think God was busy making sure the clouds stayed in the sky so He gave the reins to Adam for a minute?

Job 37:16

16 Do you know how the clouds are balanced,
Those wondrous works of Him who is perfect in knowledge?


Job 36:4
4 For truly my words are not false;
One who is perfect in knowledge is with you.



Psalms 147:5
5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power;
His understanding is infinite.



1 John 3:20

20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

These verses do not preclude dynamic omniscience (as contingent, possible choices become certain/actual, God's knowledge of them shifts from possible/probable to certain). The contexts affirm that God knows our hearts (present knowledge, not future knowledge), he knows the past and present exhaustively, but they do not prove He knows the anticipatory future in the same way (since it is different than the fixed past or actual present). The issue is not omniscience (we all affirm this), but the nature of reality (determined or free). They also show that God is intelligent, a different matter than EDF.

 

[sky.]

These verses do not preclude dynamic omniscience (as contingent, possible choices become certain/actual, God's knowledge of them shifts from possible/probable to certain). The contexts affirm that God knows our hearts (present knowledge, not future knowledge), he knows the past and present exhaustively, but they do not prove He knows the anticipatory future in the same way (since it is different than the fixed past or actual present). The issue is not omniscience (we all affirm this), but the nature of reality (determined or free). They also show that God is intelligent, a different matter than EDF.

You have an answer out side of the Bible for everything, don't you wise guy?

Why is it so important to you to think that you know the bounds of God's intelligence?

 

[chatmaggot]

:dizzy:

Didn't you already meet yourself?

So you don't have an answer.

If God sees all "time" (past, present, and future) equally and is present in the past and future as He is in the present, then is it possible for God to reach into the future by 10 years (assuming I am alive in 10 years) and bring my future self to meet the present me?

If God is "outside" of time and exists in an "eternal now" and "sees" our history just He sees our present, then is God right now giving the Law to Moses?