I have no problem with the verse. I believe that God does not lie, and I don't see a contradiction when God moves to do something or not do something He said He was going to do if people do not repent.
Proof from the Bible that God is In Time
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Excellent. So you understand that God does indeed repent and changes His "mind".
I believe the Spirit of God knows the mind of God. I believe God does not need to repent of sin, but does "change course" concerning the coming of His wrath when men repent.
Romans 11:34
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
This verse has a context. It does not preclude having much revelation on God and His ways, but does exclude exhaustive knowledge. The context relates to the election of Israel, not that God has not given us any truth about Himself.
1 Samuel 15:29 ASV
29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent.
hmmm.
In the same chapter, it earlier said that God did repent/change His mind. In one issue, God did change His mind, but in another issue, He chose not to change is mind (will not is not cannot). Like Numbers, it shows that God will not change His mind in a fickle, capricious way, but will change it when it is wise to do so. Read the whole chapter to see both truths instead of proof texting one truth out of context of the equally valid other truth. A personal being can change His mind, but He does not have to unless there is a reason to (in response to prayer, changing contingencies, etc.).
Fatalistic, deterministic views are Islamic and Calvinistic, not Christian (though Calvinists can be Christians despite a wrong view of sovereignty/free will). 35x it says God changes His mind. The couple times it says He does not is in a context of not changing it arbitrarily or in a specific case (such as lack of repentance by warned people). The verses can be taken at face value vs figurative if you change your wrong view instead of the Bible.
http://reknew.org/2008/01/isnt-god-changing-his-mind-an-anthropomorphism/
The incarnation was a profound change in the triune relations. These texts are about constancy of character and that God does not change in a fickle, capricious, arbitrary way like humans. They are not proof of a Platonic, impersonal, Unmoved Mover. Personal beings, including God change in some ways, but not in other ways. Even classical theologians are seeing this and affirming weak vs strong immutability (impassibility is another wrong traditional teaching).
Shasta
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What you are saying assumes that I accept your concept of what Christ “being in nature” means.
When Christ was incarnated then He did not use His divine attributes. Since He was in the natural world He operated according to laws of the universe except on those occasions when He performed miracles. Though He was fully both God and man he willingly limited Himself so that he knew only what the Father showed Him and only do as the Father told him. Even the miracles He performed were done by dependence on the Father's power(Jn 5:19).
In the form of man Jesus had a real flesh and blood body that required, food, water and rest. In this sense He was a“part of nature” but no more so than we are while we have natural bodies. This is much different than saying Jesus (who is God) permeates, interacts, connects with he flowers, mountains trees and dirt. There is no evidence that He made this claim then or that He expected that it would ever happen.
We do not worship Christ because He has a fleshly body (2 Cor 1:5-17). We worship HIM and for the love that impelled Him to take human on human flesh to die for us.
Weak immutability?
The Immutability of God is an attribute where “God is unchanging in his character, will, and covenant promises."
The Westminster Shorter Catechism says, ’God is a spirit, whose being, wisdom power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth are infinite, eternal, and unchangeable.” Those things do not change. A number of Scriptures attest to this idea (e.g. Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29; Ps. 102:26; Mal. 3:6; 2 Tim. 2:13; Heb. 6:17–18; Jam. 1:17
God's immutability defines all his other attributes: he is immutably wise, he cannot but be merciful, good, and gracious. The same may be said about his knowledge: God does not need to gain knowledge; he knows all things, eternally and immutably so. Infiniteness and immutability in God are mutually supportive and imply each other. An infinite and changing God is inconceivable; indeed it is a contradiction in definition.
Link
Calvinistic catechisms are not infallible like Scripture. Immutability should not be seen as the Platonic error of any change means God is not perfect. God does not change in His character and attributes, but He can and does change in His relations, knowledge (possible to actual as reality changes), incarnation, thinking, feeling, actions, etc.
Strong vs weak immutability is a technical theological debate, not a denial of God's unchanging character and attributes.
Strong vs weak immutability is a technical theological debate, not a denial of God's unchanging character and attributes.
The attributes of God are not up for debate.
Colossians 2:8
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Even classical theologians still debate the nuances of their views. The early church also had doctrinal disputes and differences on these things. Calvinists say the sovereignty of God is meticulous control, but other believers see it as providential. Omniscience, aseity, impassibility, immutability do need to be defined biblically, since some tradition is not truth and was unduly influenced by Greek philosophy or the fallibility of people such as Augustine, Aquinas, etc. (who were philosophical, syncretistic, not always biblical).
The fact that so many Christians, denominations, scholars, etc. differ on the details of any given thing in theology shows that we must debate it. We are not a uniformity, authoritarian cult.
Aimiel
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Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hmm... let's see, who do I trust? The words of a man or those of God? :think:
That isn't the part to which I was referring.:nono:
You have failed to show that time was created. You're a failure.
I will offer you the same opportunity as I did Untellectual. I will discuss this verse with you and show you that it means exactly what it says and that it does not contradict the multiple of times that Bible says that God does repent. It might be lengthy but if you are willing I will go through it with you.
Are you implying that Jesus always existed in the flesh prior to the incarnation?
Aimiel
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It's obvious... as is your impudence.
Aimiel
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The phrase: "...The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," says that God never changes, knows the future and I honestly cannot see how anyone with a basic understanding of Scripture might question that.
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
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