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Will Duffy YouTube Debate v CJ Borns Open Theism 11/23/19

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  • Derf
    replied
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

    Did God need foreknowledge to know Hezekiah was going to die. no
    Did God need foreknowledge to keep Hezekiah alive 15 more years . no

    your Hezekiah verses are about whether or not the future is settled


    God is prophesying the punishment and the unrepentance
    and open theist say God is guessing that he may or may not punish and they may or may not repent.

    Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
    Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.



    post #9

    open theism teaches God guesses

    open theism accuses calvinism of having a god that is a stone idol
    while
    open theism has a god created in mans image

    sorry I do not agree with open theism or calvinism
    You might not agree, but you're arguing against yourself at this point, as I described. You need to consider what you really do and don't believe. I'm not hung up on the name . If you don't want to be associated with the term "open theism", that's fine. But what you described is a changeable future, and I don't know what else to call it.

    Leave a comment:


  • way 2 go
    replied
    Originally posted by Derf View Post
    Let me spell out what you have just said:
    "God needs to know to future in order to know what He (God) is going to do, and whether it will be successful."
    That makes God dependent on something He doesn't control--the future. Instead "the future" is in control of God. You've just turned God into Zeus, who is subject to "The Fates".

    If the future is fixed, then God can know the future, but can't CHANGE the future, else it wouldn't be fixed. So, once again, God is subject to what happens in the future--God is not "God Most High", but "God Almost High".
    Did God need foreknowledge to know Hezekiah was going to die. no
    Did God need foreknowledge to keep Hezekiah alive 15 more years . no

    your Hezekiah verses are about whether or not the future is settled


    God is prophesying the punishment and the unrepentance
    and open theist say God is guessing that he may or may not punish and they may or may not repent.

    Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
    Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.


    These statements from you are Open Theist statements, both of them.
    If Hezekiah "was" going to die, it implies that the future has changed, or is at least changeable.
    If God was going to extend Hezekiah's life, that means Hezekiah's lifespan was "x", and God was going to make it "x + y" ("x" and "y" both being positive numbers). Since the end of life in BOTH cases was in the future, you are saying that God is changing the future.

    You are a closet Open Theist.

    Don't feel bad about this. Many supposed traditional theists are actually closet open theists. Ask Mr Religion was, though he didn't admit it.


    You've said this before, and I'm surprised you bring it back up again. You are saying that the only way God could save Hezekiah was for God to lie. But Hezekiah didn't really need saving, since he wasn't really going to die--unless you're an open theist.

    I'll add you to my "closet open theist" list.
    post #9

    open theism teaches God guesses

    open theism accuses calvinism of having a god that is a stone idol
    while
    open theism has a god created in mans image

    sorry I do not agree with open theism or calvinism

    Leave a comment:


  • Derf
    replied
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

    you say the OT God doesn't need to know the future
    but there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes because the open theist God doesn't know the future.
    Let me spell out what you have just said:
    "God needs to know to future in order to know what He (God) is going to do, and whether it will be successful."
    That makes God dependent on something He doesn't control--the future. Instead "the future" is in control of God. You've just turned God into Zeus, who is subject to "The Fates".

    If the future is fixed, then God can know the future, but can't CHANGE the future, else it wouldn't be fixed. So, once again, God is subject to what happens in the future--God is not "God Most High", but "God Almost High".




    Hezekiah was going to die

    God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life
    These statements from you are Open Theist statements, both of them.
    If Hezekiah "was" going to die, it implies that the future has changed, or is at least changeable.
    If God was going to extend Hezekiah's life, that means Hezekiah's lifespan was "x", and God was going to make it "x + y" ("x" and "y" both being positive numbers). Since the end of life in BOTH cases was in the future, you are saying that God is changing the future.

    You are a closet Open Theist.

    Don't feel bad about this. Many supposed traditional theists are actually closet open theists. Ask Mr Religion was, though he didn't admit it.

    and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
    Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
    had he not been told he would have died .
    You've said this before, and I'm surprised you bring it back up again. You are saying that the only way God could save Hezekiah was for God to lie. But Hezekiah didn't really need saving, since he wasn't really going to die--unless you're an open theist.

    I'll add you to my "closet open theist" list.

    Leave a comment:


  • JudgeRightly
    replied
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
    maybe you could try to refute it but
    I have no obligation to refute a straw man used ad nauseum.

    Make an argument worth refuting and I will address it.

    the open theist God is guessing is true because the open theist God doesn't know the future.

    . . .

    God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
    Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
    had he not been told he would have died .
    you want the cart before the horse

    . . .

    so to the open theist the prophecy is guess no convincing argument against this so far
    I will not be responding to the above portions of your post, as they are simply you repeating your claims without supporting them after they have been addressed.

    you say the OT God doesn't need to know the future
    You have yet to show how knowing the future is a requirement for God.

    but there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes
    Because you say so?

    Are you claiming that God is incapable of accomplishing what He desires?

    because the open theist God
    God is the "open theist[sic] God"

    We're talking about the same God here, W2G.

    doesn't know the future.
    Thankfully, God is capable of bringing about the future He desires without needing to know the future.

    Hezekiah was going to die
    You say that, but according to your position, Hezekiah was not going to die for another 15 years.

    According to your position, Hezekiah was going to live, because God knew that he would pray to Him to spare his life, and God knew that because of that He would heal him.

    You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either Hezekiah was going to die, or God lied to him to get him to pray to God to heal him.

    Which is it, Way2Go? Because the latter turns God into a manipulative liar.

    do you have evidence of him praying to live before he was told he was going to die ?
    Huh?

    What kind of an out of left field question is that?

    The Bible says that God used Isaiah to tell Hezekiah he was going to die, and get his house in order, and in response to that, Hezekiah pleaded with God to heal him, and that it wasn't but moments later that God told Isaiah to tell Hezekiah that he would be healed.

    do you have evidence that had he not been told he was going to die he would have lived ?
    God said that Hezekiah was going to die. What reason do you have to doubt Him?

    If God says something will come to pass, if circumstances do not change, will that something come to pass?

    God healed Hezekiah , are you calling that evil?
    It was if God knew about the wicked things Hezekiah would do when God would heal him, because it would make God into a facilitator of evil.

    Are you not aware of how arrogant Hezekiah became?

    God telling Hezekiah you are going to die ,are you calling that evil?
    lain:

    does God know?
    Know what?

    The point is that if Jesus is God (as you and I both believe He is), Jesus not knowing something precludes Him from woodenly literally knowing all things, because that's one thing He doesn't know.

    you are trying to diminish God knows all things
    No, I'm trying to get you to realize that "knows all things" does NOT mean omniscience.

    ( make God in mans image )
    This is a non-sequitur.

    And on the contrary, you're putting God in a box that says He must know everything, past, present, and future.

    Whereas the Bible says that God learns, grows in wisdom, is able to put away things from His memory and,

    by comparing a verse where it says by the Holy spirit man knows all things
    Man is incapable of woodenly literally knowing all things, even with the Holy Spirit's help.

    "All things," woodenly literally, are not knowable, because there are some things that are not knowable (for example, the number of hairs on the boogeyman's head).

    Therefore, "knows all things" must be a figure of speech that should not be taken woodenly literally, as you do.

    Leave a comment:


  • way 2 go
    replied
    Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

    Argumentum ad nauseum

    Repeating your claim won't make it become true.
    maybe you could try to refute it but

    the open theist God is guessing is true because the open theist God doesn't know the future.


    Again, do you think God is incapable of bringing about the future He desires?

    I think He is perfectly capable of doing so, without having to know the future.
    you say the OT God doesn't need to know the future
    but there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes because the open theist God doesn't know the future.



    That's what I've been trying to ask you the past couple of posts.

    Do you think God lied when He told Hezekiah that he would die?

    Because God was telling the truth Hezekiah was going to die, and then after Hezekiah pleaded with God to spare him, God changed His mind about allowing him to die, and spared him.

    Your position has God lying to Hezekiah to achieve the desired result, which was set in stone before the world began.
    Hezekiah was going to die

    False dichotomy.

    God knew Hezekiah was going to die based on his current (at the time) condition. God told the truth to Hezekiah that Hezekiah would die soon, and that he should get his house in order.

    God CHANGED the outcome of his prophecy to Hezekiah (which was that he would die) after Hezekiah pleaded with God to spare his life, and did so by healing Hezekiah, and all of this is possible because God is CAPABLE of intervening.

    Your beliefs have you saying God lied to Hezekiah to achieve a preset result
    Where is your proof that God knew that He was going to extend his life?
    God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
    Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
    had he not been told he would have died .
    you want the cart before the horse




    Because if you read the story, all there is is God telling Hezekiah to get his house in order. You don't tell someone that if you're going to heal them.

    He needed to be told he was dying so that he would pray to live?

    Who's putting the cart before the horse again?
    do you have evidence of him praying to live before he was told he was going to die ?

    do you have evidence that had he not been told he was going to die he would have lived ?


    And for what purpose would God do such a thing? If God knew the future, then He would know that Hezekiah would become exceedingly wicked for the remaining 15 years of his life.

    Don't do evil that good may come of it?
    God seems to be the one who breaks that rule the most according to your position!
    God healed Hezekiah , are you calling that evil ?

    God telling Hezekiah you are going to die ,are you calling that evil ?


    So then you would agree that when Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour, not even the Son" (paraphrasing here), then that means that there are some things even God the Son doesn't know, correct?
    does God know ?



    I'm trying to get you to realize that "knowing all things" is not exclusive to God, like you seem to think it is.

    Do you think man is capable of knowing all things the way God knows all things?
    you are trying to diminish God knows all things ( make God in mans image )
    by comparing a verse where it says by the Holy spirit man knows all things


    Argumentum ad nauseum

    Repeating your claim won't make it become true.
    so to the open theist the prophecy is guess no convincing argument against this so far


    Leave a comment:


  • JudgeRightly
    replied
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
    the open theist God is guessing is true because the open theist God doesn't know the future.
    Argumentum ad nauseum

    Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

    there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes because the open theist God doesn't know the future.
    Again, do you think God is incapable of bringing about the future He desires?

    I think He is perfectly capable of doing so, without having to know the future.

    is that the open theist position that God lied when God said Hezekiah would die?
    That's what I've been trying to ask you the past couple of posts.

    Do you think God lied when He told Hezekiah that he would die?

    Because God was telling the truth Hezekiah was going to die, and then after Hezekiah pleaded with God to spare him, God changed His mind about allowing him to die, and spared him.

    Your position has God lying to Hezekiah to achieve the desired result, which was set in stone before the world began.

    or the open theist God was guessing Hezekiah would die?
    False dichotomy.

    God knew Hezekiah was going to die based on his current (at the time) condition. God told the truth to Hezekiah that Hezekiah would die soon, and that he should get his house in order.

    God CHANGED the outcome of his prophecy to Hezekiah (which was that he would die) after Hezekiah pleaded with God to spare his life, and did so by healing Hezekiah, and all of this is possible because God is CAPABLE of intervening.

    Your beliefs have you saying God lied to Hezekiah to achieve a preset result.

    God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life
    Where is your proof that God knew that He was going to extend his life?

    Because if you read the story, all there is is God telling Hezekiah to get his house in order. You don't tell someone that if you're going to heal them.

    And for what purpose would God do such a thing? If God knew the future, then He would know that Hezekiah would become exceedingly wicked for the remaining 15 years of his life.

    Don't do evil that good may come of it?

    God seems to be the one who breaks that rule the most according to your position!

    and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
    Argumentum ad nauseum

    Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

    Also:
    http://kgov.com/miracles

    Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
    had he not been told he would have died .
    you want the cart before the horse
    He needed to be told he was dying so that he would pray to live?

    Who's putting the cart before the horse again?

    Originally posted by JudgeRightly;
    It also says God doesn't know certain things, and that He also learns things.

    Unless you also deny the deity of Christ... do you?
    Jesus is God
    I'm glad you think so too.

    So then you would agree that when Jesus said that no man knows the day or the hour, not even the Son" (paraphrasing here), then that means that there are some things even God the Son doesn't know, correct?

    with those two verses
    There is only one verse in the portion you quoted.

    so are you trying to make God in mans image
    . . .
    or

    proving my point that it is God knows all things as it is from the Holy Spirit that they know all things 1 John 2:20
    I'm trying to get you to realize that "knowing all things" is not exclusive to God, like you seem to think it is.

    Do you think man is capable of knowing all things the way God knows all things?

    so to the open theist the prophecy is guess
    Argumentum ad nauseum

    Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

    at no repentance
    Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, the One having authority over these plagues and they did not repent to give Him glory.
    Which is more important to God? Prophecy? or Love?

    no
    Did God know prior to His removal of him, that Saul would be included in the bloodline of Christ?

    In other words, was it a statement of fact? or was it a guess? Or was it a lie?

    Leave a comment:


  • way 2 go
    replied
    Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

    Argumentum ad nauseum

    Repeating your claim won't make it become true.
    the open theist God is guessing is true because the open theist God doesn't know the future.



    Which is why I asked you this:

    Do you think that God is incapable of bringing about the end result He desires?

    You must not, because you would rather have God locked into Fate where He cannot do anything other than what has already been predetermined that He would do.
    there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes because the open theist God doesn't know the future.


    You're right, "repent" is the wrong word to use.

    If you are not, then the only logical answer is that God knew beforehand that Hezekiah would die, but then Hezekiah, upon hearing that, asked God to spare him, and so God, who is a merciful God, decided to heal Hezekiah, so that he would not die for another 15 years.

    The ONLY OTHER OPTION is to say God intentionally lied to get Hezekiah to plead with Him to spare him. Which contradicts the fact that God does not lie.
    is that the open theist position that God lied when God said Hezekiah would die ?
    or
    the open theist God was guessing Hezekiah would die ?



    Or does it, in fact, show God deciding to change the outcome and allow Hezekiah to live, when God had stated quite clearly that he would die?

    In other words, it boils down to whether you are calling God a liar.
    God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
    Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
    had he not been told he would have died .
    you want the cart before the horse


    Unless you also deny the deity of Christ... do you?
    Jesus is God


    So, does that mean that men also know all things? Go back exactly one chapter, 1 John 2:20.

    But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. - 1 John 2:20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV
    so are you trying to make God in mans image with those two verses

    or

    proving my point that it is God knows all things as it is from the Holy Spirit that they know all things 1 John 2:20


    AGREED! But He doesn't know WHO will not repent.
    so to the open theist the prophecy is guess at no repentance
    Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, the One having authority over these plagues and they did not repent to give Him glory.


    Just like He knew that Hezekiah would die soon, and told Him, in no uncertain terms, that he would die, along with a command to get his house in order.

    But you seem to be forgetting something, and I just realized this after thinking about the portion of your post I'm currently replying to.

    You seem to think in your mind that the decision by God to heal Hezekiah was made when He moved the shadow backwards. It wasn't.
    no


    I think that, more likely than not, there will be some who do not repent. However, who those people are is not set in stone. Nor is that evidence that God knows the future (let alone exhaustively).

    God doesn't know which people will not repent.
    so to the open theist the prophecy is guess at no repentance
    Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, the One having authority over these plagues and they did not repent to give Him glory.





    Leave a comment:


  • Derf
    replied
    Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

    Argumentum ad nauseum

    Repeating your claim won't make it become true.



    Which is why I asked you this:

    Do you think that God is incapable of bringing about the end result He desires?

    You must not, because you would rather have God locked into Fate where He cannot do anything other than what has already been predetermined that He would do.



    I see why you would think that this verse would support your position, and I agree that it seems to, on it's face, say that Jonah knew that they would repent.

    But I think you're taking it too woodenly literally, where the context doesn't require it.

    Nineveh just showed Jonah up, big time, and Jonah's attitude was sour because of it. I think Jonah was just saying that He knew it was a possibility, not that he "knew" it in the absolute sense, that he had some sort of premonition that it would occur that they would repent. In other words, I think he was just angry (and the entire passage supports that) that Nineveh repented, and that it's something he said to try to justify himself, even though he was clearly in the wrong. Jonah's attitude seems to be the key focus of the story, and as far as I can tell, he never repented of his anger, as the book ends with God reprimanding him for his anger.

    So, while I agree that that is an excellent verse to use, I would have to say that, unfortunately, it supports my position better than it does yours, simply because of the context.

    Unfortunately, the Bible does not record his utterance of that claim to knowledge at the beginning of the book, so at this point, there's even the possibility (aside from what I said above) that Jonah was lying, and simply didn't want to admit he was wrong.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    We won't know that for sure until we get to heaven.





    Try making a different argument, because that straw man won't work.



    God is capable of bringing about the future He desires. That's what Open Theism says.



    You're right, "repent" is the wrong word to use.

    My point, however, is that Hezekiah begged God to change the outcome, and God was influenced by Hezekiah's pleading (which shows God is not "impassable") and spared Hezekiah's life.

    What part of the following...



    ... shows God following through with the original plan?

    Or does it, in fact, show God deciding to change the outcome and allow Hezekiah to live, when God had stated quite clearly that he would die?

    In other words, it boils down to whether you are calling God a liar.

    If you are not, then the only logical answer is that God knew beforehand that Hezekiah would die, but then Hezekiah, upon hearing that, asked God to spare him, and so God, who is a merciful God, decided to heal Hezekiah, so that he would not die for another 15 years.

    The ONLY OTHER OPTION is to say God intentionally lied to get Hezekiah to plead with Him to spare him. Which contradicts the fact that God does not lie.



    It also says God doesn't know certain things, and that He also learns things.

    Unless you also deny the deity of Christ... do you?



    So, does that mean that men also know all things? Go back exactly one chapter, 1 John 2:20.

    But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. - 1 John 2:20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV



    What I said earlier, that God can choose what he knows and remembers, and can choose to forget things or retain them, fits that passage to a 'T.'



    AGREED! But He doesn't know WHO will not repent.

    Just like He knew that Hezekiah would die soon, and told Him, in no uncertain terms, that he would die, along with a command to get his house in order.

    But you seem to be forgetting something, and I just realized this after thinking about the portion of your post I'm currently replying to.

    You seem to think in your mind that the decision by God to heal Hezekiah was made when He moved the shadow backwards. It wasn't.

    The decision was made just after Hezekiah begged God to heal him. Isaiah didn't even have a chance to leave before God changed His mind.

    In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ”Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying,“Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,“Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord .And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.”’ ”Then Isaiah said, “Take a lump of figs.” So they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, “What is the sign that the Lord will heal me, and that I shall go up to the house of the Lord the third day?”Then Isaiah said, “This is the sign to you from the Lord, that the Lord will do the thing which He has spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees or go backward ten degrees?”And Hezekiah answered, “It is an easy thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees; no, but let the shadow go backward ten degrees.”So Isaiah the prophet cried out to the Lord, and He brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down on the sundial of Ahaz. - 2 Kings 20:1-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...&version=NKJV1



    I think that, more likely than not, there will be some who do not repent. However, who those people are is not set in stone. Nor is that evidence that God knows the future (let alone exhaustively).

    It simply means that such unrepentance will occur because of and in spite of God's actions. And that further supports my position, that God is capable of bringing about the future He desires, in spite of and even using those who hate Him.

    The problem with your position is that it takes what the Bible says further than it should.

    God doesn't know which people will not repent.

    He knows, just like with Hezekiah before God chose to heal him, that some people will not repent. And because God the Father hasn't decided when the Son shall return yet, He simply cannot know specifics. But that DOES NOT MEAN that God cannot bring about that which He said would happen.



    Repeating your claim isn't going to make it come true.



    You were just shown exactly how God can know that some will not repent, yet not know the future.

    At the risk of diluting my point, I have a question:

    Did God know prior to His removal of him, that Saul would be included in the bloodline of Christ?
    Great post, JudgeRightly! Unfortunately, I have a feeling way 2 go will not understand your reference to King Saul.

    Leave a comment:


  • JudgeRightly
    replied
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
    the open theist God is guessing
    Argumentum ad nauseum

    Repeating your claim won't make it become true.

    so there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes
    Which is why I asked you this:

    Do you think that God is incapable of bringing about the end result He desires?

    You must not, because you would rather have God locked into Fate where He cannot do anything other than what has already been predetermined that He would do.

    Jonah 4:2
    I see why you would think that this verse would support your position, and I agree that it seems to, on it's face, say that Jonah knew that they would repent.

    But I think you're taking it too woodenly literally, where the context doesn't require it.

    Nineveh just showed Jonah up, big time, and Jonah's attitude was sour because of it. I think Jonah was just saying that He knew it was a possibility, not that he "knew" it in the absolute sense, that he had some sort of premonition that it would occur that they would repent. In other words, I think he was just angry (and the entire passage supports that) that Nineveh repented, and that it's something he said to try to justify himself, even though he was clearly in the wrong. Jonah's attitude seems to be the key focus of the story, and as far as I can tell, he never repented of his anger, as the book ends with God reprimanding him for his anger.

    So, while I agree that that is an excellent verse to use, I would have to say that, unfortunately, it supports my position better than it does yours, simply because of the context.

    Unfortunately, the Bible does not record his utterance of that claim to knowledge at the beginning of the book, so at this point, there's even the possibility (aside from what I said above) that Jonah was lying, and simply didn't want to admit he was wrong.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    We won't know that for sure until we get to heaven.

    the open theist God is guessing


    Try making a different argument, because that straw man won't work.

    as he does not know the future.
    God is capable of bringing about the future He desires. That's what Open Theism says.

    Hezekiah didn't repent
    You're right, "repent" is the wrong word to use.

    My point, however, is that Hezekiah begged God to change the outcome, and God was influenced by Hezekiah's pleading (which shows God is not "impassable") and spared Hezekiah's life.

    What part of the following...

    2Ki 20:3 I pray, O Jehovah, remember now how I have walked before You in truth and with a sincere heart, and have done good in Your sight. And Hezekiah wept with a great weeping.

    & the condition was on God
    2Ki 20:8 And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, What shall be the sign that Jehovah will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of Jehovah the third day?
    ...
    2Ki 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten steps. No, but let the shadow go backward ten steps.
    ... shows God following through with the original plan?

    Or does it, in fact, show God deciding to change the outcome and allow Hezekiah to live, when God had stated quite clearly that he would die?

    In other words, it boils down to whether you are calling God a liar.

    If you are not, then the only logical answer is that God knew beforehand that Hezekiah would die, but then Hezekiah, upon hearing that, asked God to spare him, and so God, who is a merciful God, decided to heal Hezekiah, so that he would not die for another 15 years.

    The ONLY OTHER OPTION is to say God intentionally lied to get Hezekiah to plead with Him to spare him. Which contradicts the fact that God does not lie.

    the open theist says God can know & the bible says God knows
    It also says God doesn't know certain things, and that He also learns things.

    Unless you also deny the deity of Christ... do you?

    1Jn_3:20 that if our heart accuses us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
    So, does that mean that men also know all things? Go back exactly one chapter, 1 John 2:20.

    But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. - 1 John 2:20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0&version=NKJV

    Mat 12:36 But I say to you that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give account of it in the day of judgment.
    Mat 12:37 For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.
    What I said earlier, that God can choose what he knows and remembers, and can choose to forget things or retain them, fits that passage to a 'T.'

    God knows they will not repent ,
    AGREED! But He doesn't know WHO will not repent.

    Just like He knew that Hezekiah would die soon, and told Him, in no uncertain terms, that he would die, along with a command to get his house in order.

    But you seem to be forgetting something, and I just realized this after thinking about the portion of your post I'm currently replying to.

    You seem to think in your mind that the decision by God to heal Hezekiah was made when He moved the shadow backwards. It wasn't.

    The decision was made just after Hezekiah begged God to heal him. Isaiah didn't even have a chance to leave before God changed His mind.

    In those days Hezekiah was sick and near death. And Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, went to him and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Set your house in order, for you shall die, and not live.’ ”Then he turned his face toward the wall, and prayed to the Lord, saying,“Remember now, O Lord, I pray, how I have walked before You in truth and with a loyal heart, and have done what was good in Your sight.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.And it happened, before Isaiah had gone out into the middle court, that the word of the Lord came to him, saying,“Return and tell Hezekiah the leader of My people, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of David your father: “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord .And I will add to your days fifteen years. I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for My own sake, and for the sake of My servant David.”’ ”Then Isaiah said, “Take a lump of figs.” So they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, “What is the sign that the Lord will heal me, and that I shall go up to the house of the Lord the third day?”Then Isaiah said, “This is the sign to you from the Lord, that the Lord will do the thing which He has spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees or go backward ten degrees?”And Hezekiah answered, “It is an easy thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees; no, but let the shadow go backward ten degrees.”So Isaiah the prophet cried out to the Lord, and He brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down on the sundial of Ahaz. - 2 Kings 20:1-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...&version=NKJV1

    Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.
    I think that, more likely than not, there will be some who do not repent. However, who those people are is not set in stone. Nor is that evidence that God knows the future (let alone exhaustively).

    It simply means that such unrepentance will occur because of and in spite of God's actions. And that further supports my position, that God is capable of bringing about the future He desires, in spite of and even using those who hate Him.

    The problem with your position is that it takes what the Bible says further than it should.

    God doesn't know which people will not repent.

    He knows, just like with Hezekiah before God chose to heal him, that some people will not repent. And because God the Father hasn't decided when the Son shall return yet, He simply cannot know specifics. But that DOES NOT MEAN that God cannot bring about that which He said would happen.

    the open theist says God is guessing
    Repeating your claim isn't going to make it come true.

    and can't know if "they will not repent"
    You were just shown exactly how God can know that some will not repent, yet not know the future.

    At the risk of diluting my point, I have a question:

    Did God know prior to His removal of him, that Saul would be included in the bloodline of Christ?

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  • way 2 go
    replied
    Originally posted by JudgeRightly View Post

    Correct. Because the future does not exist.

    However, do you think that because of that, God cannot bring about the future He desires?
    the open theist God is guessing so there is no way he can be sure of the results of the actions he takes


    Could you provide the scripture that says that Jonah knew prior to his going to Nineveh that Nineveh would repent?
    Jonah 4:2



    In NO WAY is God's prophecy "guessing."
    the open theist God is guessing as he does not know the future.



    Where was the condition given by God to Hezekiah that if he repented, God would allow him to live? Was there one?
    Hezekiah didn't repent
    2Ki 20:3 I pray, O Jehovah, remember now how I have walked before You in truth and with a sincere heart, and have done good in Your sight. And Hezekiah wept with a great weeping.

    & the condition was on God
    2Ki 20:8 And Hezekiah said to Isaiah, What shall be the sign that Jehovah will heal me, and that I shall go up into the house of Jehovah the third day?
    ...
    2Ki 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten steps. No, but let the shadow go backward ten steps.



    We say that God CAN know anything that is knowable.
    the open theist says God can know & the bible says God knows

    1Jn_3:20 that if our heart accuses us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things.
    We don't think God is a bureaucrat, keeping track of everything everywhere at all times, but that He can choose to retain information or forget it.
    Mat 12:36 But I say to you that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give account of it in the day of judgment.
    Mat 12:37 For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.

    Do you think it is logical to know something that cannot be known? For example, Can God know then number of hairs on the boogeyman's head?

    Again, is something that cannot be known, knowable (self-contradictory)?
    God knows they will not repent ,
    Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.

    the open theist says God is guessing & can't know if "they will not repent"


    Leave a comment:


  • Derf
    replied
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
    I said the open theist god does not know the future
    I'm not sure of your point here. Open theists say the same thing. The caveat is that open theists say God makes plans and fulfills His plans. In that sense (and in the sense of knowing how far earth will have traveled around the sun by this time tomorrow, if He doesn't intervene) God knows "the future". But "the future" is not something one can review like a movie. It's something that isn't, but will be. If it isn't, then God has no requirement to know what "it" is to maintain His omniscience.

    I'm not quite as ready as JudgeRightly to say there are things God chooses not to know, but I understand why he says that--
    [Jer 31:34 KJV] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
    [Heb 8:12 KJV] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    I would suggest that it's a figure of speech to say God doesn't remember something that happened in the past. But it's a minor difference.


    If Nineveh wasn't told of the coming punishment then they would not have repented which Jonah knew they would but the open theist god did not know
    Agree. There are two possible future events, one where the Ninevites are destroyed and one where they continue to live. God told one outcome to the Ninevites, but the other one is what happened. If the destruction of Nineveh was never known by God to be what would happen, then He lied to them through Jonah. (Or the writer of the book of Jonah lied to us in telling us the story). If God thought the destruction of Nineveh was the future event, then He did not lie to Jonah or the Nineveh, but He proved He isn't omniscient about the future.

    Neither of these logical results is something settled or open theists believe, but only open theism allows for the story of Jonah as written without demeaning God (or God's Word). If you have another way to look at it, please spell it out in whole sentences, as I would like to consider it.


    so to the open theist the prophecy is guess at no repentance
    Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, the One having authority over these plagues and they did not repent to give Him glory.
    Tell me the names of the "men" and "they". If you can't, then the prophecy is a general one, and possibly a contingent one (though I doubt the latter). General prophecies are not so easy to pin down as to who they are talking about, so it can apply in different ways when the time comes. "They" might mean everyone on earth, or everyone in Israel, or everyone outside of Israel, or it might mean a select few (the leaders of a rebellion, perhaps).


    did it prove the open theist God doesn't guess ?
    You were the one that made the assertion, so you need to prove that He does, in the open theism model. My point was that there is no need to appeal to God guessing in open theism. However, in settled theism there is a need to show how God could be wrong about a prophecy. Do you have an answer? We'll consider your comments here:
    Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
    had he not been told he would have died .
    You are making my point. Your view says that 1. God had to lie to Hezekiah to get Hezekiah to behave in a certain way. OR that 2. God didn't really know what was going to happen to Hezekiah. Which one do you choose?
    you want the cart before the horse
    You want the cart pulled by a horse already beaten to death.

    this verse only trips up open theist , God already knew , Abraham on the other hand didn't hence the conversation that followed

    Gen 18:21 I will go down and see if they have at all done according to the cry coming to Me. And if not, I will know.
    ...
    Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near and said, Is it so? Will You cut off the righteous with the wicked?
    Gen 18:24 Perhaps there are fifty righteous within the city; is it so You will cut off and will not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous ones that are within it?
    You can make that assertion, but it's baseless. Where in those verses does it say God knew how many righteous there were?


    open theist say God knows all that is knowable but not the future but they don't even believe God knows what is knowable

    why would God who knows all need to find out anything ?
    This is the right question to ask. And the only answer I've seen that doesn't demean God is that God doesn't know what isn't true, and God is looking for people to repent before they are destroyed. The story of the Ninevites says that. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah says that.

    If God gives a prophecy of destruction He's not telling the future, He's telling what the future will be if they don't repent. If the people repent, God is merciful--
    [Jon 3:10 KJV] And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.



    open theist like to say God knows our thoughts but you don't even believe that.
    Thoughts aren't the same as actions. Just because you think about doing something, doesn't mean you are going to do that thing. God condemns both the coveting (10th commandment) as well as the actions (murder, stealing, adultery,...) that result from that coveting. If the thoughts and actions are exactly the same, why bother with the tenth commandment? Surely God was drawing a line in the sand that helps us to avoid the hurt we might exact on others, even if we've already hurt ourselves by the coveting.


    bible does not say how God knows things
    Then why do you claim that God knows the future because the future is settled? If it's not in the bible, then it must be that you have conceived of God a certain way in your own mind.

    Thus when you say:
    open theist make God in mans image
    You are at least equally guilty.

    Leave a comment:


  • JudgeRightly
    replied
    Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
    I said the open theist god does not know the future
    Correct. Because the future does not exist.

    However, do you think that because of that, God cannot bring about the future He desires?

    If Nineveh wasn't told of the coming punishment then they would not have repented
    Correct.

    which Jonah knew they would
    Could you provide the scripture that says that Jonah knew prior to his going to Nineveh that Nineveh would repent?

    but the open theist god did not know
    Didn't know what?

    Whether Nineveh would repent or not?

    so to the open theist the prophecy is guess at no repentance
    I'm not even sure what you're saying because your grammar is terrible.

    Could you rephrase please?

    [QUOTE]did it prove the open theist God doesn't guess ?

    Straw man.

    In NO WAY is God's prophecy "guessing."

    Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
    had he not been told he would have died .
    you want the cart before the horse
    Where was the condition given by God to Hezekiah that if he repented, God would allow him to live? Was there one?

    open theist say God knows all
    False.

    We say that God CAN know anything that is knowable.

    We don't think God is a bureaucrat, keeping track of everything everywhere at all times, but that He can choose to retain information or forget it.

    that is knowable
    Do you think it is logical to know something that cannot be known? For example, Can God know then number of hairs on the boogeyman's head?

    but not the future but they don't even believe God knows what is knowable
    Again, is something that cannot be known, knowable (self-contradictory)?

    why would God who knows all need to find out anything?
    Maybe you should spend some more time researching what it is open theists actually believe, because you don't seem to know.

    open theist like to say God knows our thoughts but you don't even believe that.
    This accusation is simply false, and runs counter to your argument against God being able to prophecy what men will do.

    open theist make God in mans image
    No, we don't. You should stop making this straw man.

    Leave a comment:


  • way 2 go
    replied
    Originally posted by Derf View Post

    Except what God decides to do, or to allow in what is happening. And yes, you're right--that the open theist doesn't know what God is going to do in the future--UNLESS God reveals it, which He does numerous times, sometimes even when it ISN'T the future (like Nineveh and Hezekiah examples).
    I said the open theist god does not know the future

    Yes, just like Nineveh! If they were unrepentant, the punishment would have happened. Only in that case God only told them about the current plan, not the contingency plan.
    If Nineveh wasn't told of the coming punishment then they would not have repented which Jonah knew they would but the open theist god did not know


    In the Rev 16 case, God may be again telling us about the current plan, assuming no repentance. However, I think it's more likely that He knows the general mindset of man, and knows that it is usually just a remnant that repents and is saved. So how hard is it to say that there are some that will never repent??
    so to the open theist the prophecy is guess at no repentance
    Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, the One having authority over these plagues and they did not repent to give Him glory.


    I answered these with specific, current-day examples, which you never responded to. Should we repeat???
    did it prove the open theist God doesn't guess ?

    How can you say "no"? What is foreknowledge unless it is knowledge before the event happens?
    Yes. And God would never lie and say the opposite of what He knows, would He? So if the future is settled, and God "knew" Hezekiah would die of the illness, but he didn't die of the illness, then God either KNEW a falsehood (which I would say is impossible), or God KNEW the truth but told the opposite (which I would say is a lie). Neither of these possibilities are tenable for a good and perfect God. The only remaining choice is to question the premise that the future is settled. Thus, the future is NOT settled.

    So you're saying God told Hezekiah something that wasn't true on purpose. God lied so that we would know He can do miracles?? Jesus never needed that. I guess I'm starting to see why Clete keeps calling you a liar, if you say God is a liar.
    Hezekiah needed to be told he was dying so he would by faith pray to live,
    had he not been told he would have died .
    you want the cart before the horse



    How do we know if something is knowable? If God says, "I'm going to find out ____", isn't that the same as God saying 1) that ____ IS knowable, and 2) He doesn't already know _____? And when you say He is NOT going to find out _____, are you not calling God a liar??
    this verse only trips up open theist , God already knew , Abraham on the other hand didn't hence the conversation that followed

    Gen 18:21 I will go down and see if they have at all done according to the cry coming to Me. And if not, I will know.
    ...
    Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near and said, Is it so? Will You cut off the righteous with the wicked?
    Gen 18:24 Perhaps there are fifty righteous within the city; is it so You will cut off and will not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous ones that are within it?

    The only other way to read this is to say the text is not telling us the truth. Calvinists do this, but to avoid impeaching God's character, they call it anthropomorphism.
    open theist say God knows all that is knowable but not the future but they don't even believe God knows what is knowable
    How can a God who knows everything find out something?
    why would God who knows all need to find out anything ?


    The only way is if that something comes into existence at a particular point in time. So in Sodom's case, the knowledge God was seeking was a fluid thing--something that was not available ("unknowable"), and then it became knowable. I postulated that the knowledge was something that God had to experience to find it out. And in terms of evil, future evil is not already in existence, else God could judge someone for future evil--but He never does--His future judgments are contingent on the playing out of the future evil. (This is different than God judging for current evil to prevent future evil, as it seems He often does--like the flood of Noah, or the judgment of Canaan by the Israelites.)
    open theist like to say God knows our thoughts but you don't even believe that.


    How does God know how many hairs are on our heads? [Mat 10:30 CSB] "But even the hairs of your head have all been counted. He counts?? Why would God need to count our hairs, if He knows already? If you think it's merely anthropomorphic language, do you really think Jesus didn't know how to say, God knew (or even "foreknew") how many hairs you would have?
    bible does not say how God knows things

    who is making God in a different image??
    open theist make God in mans image




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  • Clete
    replied
    Originally posted by Tambora View Post
    That would be the conclusion for that type of reasoning.

    One could also declare Jonah a false prophet for telling Nineveh that they would be destroyed in 40 days with that type of reasoning.
    Because it leaves out all the scriptures where GOD says if one repents from their evil HE will repent of the evil HE thought to do to them.
    The 40 days came and went and Nineveh was not destroyed.
    And yet Jonah was a prophet of GOD, not a false prophet.
    You're too kind here really. It's not just that they "leave out all the scriptures...", right? That is to say that, "all the scriptures" is an accurate way to say it but that phrase happens to include an entire book of the Old Testament. I mean, it's one thing to gloss over passages that are scattered here and there but they ignore one whole entire book of the bible! The book of Jonah is literally and specifically about a prophecy that not only didn't come to pass but about how the prophet who gave the prophecy not only expected it to not to come to pass but was angry about it! Indeed, it is Jonah's attitude that is the main point of the book! Nineveh and their wickedness, God's threat to destroy them and their subsequent repentance is all just the back drop to the real point of the book which was Jonah and his poor attitude about God's repentence and mercy.

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  • Tambora
    replied
    Originally posted by Clete View Post

    That's a great point!
    Why wouldn't Matthew 10:23 count as a predictive prophesy?
    So, by w2g's reasoning, if Peter isn't in Hell right now it means that Jesus must have just been guessing about who He would deny before the Father or else He was false prophet in which case Peter would still be in Hell anyway, right?
    That would be the conclusion for that type of reasoning.

    One could also declare Jonah a false prophet for telling Nineveh that they would be destroyed in 40 days with that type of reasoning.
    Because it leaves out all the scriptures where GOD says if one repents from their evil HE will repent of the evil HE thought to do to them.
    The 40 days came and went and Nineveh was not destroyed.
    And yet Jonah was a prophet of GOD, not a false prophet.



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