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Will Duffy YouTube Debate v CJ Borns Open Theism 11/23/19

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Clete View Post

    I can assure you that there is not one single instance of any Open Theist that believes God guesses. Not even the term "educated guess" would be an accurate way to describe what God does when He makes predictive prophecies, although that phrase, if used properly, is far more tollerable than the stupid lie that way 2 go is spreading here.

    Having said that, Jesus did not know, in the absolute sense of the word, that Peter would deny Him three times. Jesus knew Peter extremely well and the entire sequence of events was clearly orchestrated by God and so there was a very very high degree of certainty that Peter would do as Christ predicted because it was all about God teaching Peter something about himself and not about Jesus' ability to predict the future. Nevertheless, it was possible for Peter to repent and had he done so, it would not have broken God nor would it have made Jesus a false prophet. On the contrary, Jesus would have been elated at Peter's repentance and rejoiced that His prophecy had the desired effect.

    In fact, if Peter could not have repented, then the whole story loses it's meaning. After all, it isn't difficult to know what a puppet will do when you're the one pulling the strings. So the resident liar in this thread, way 2 go, has a choice to make. Does he believe that Peter had a choice and thus could have done otherwise as Open Theism teaches or does he believe that Peter's actions were not chosen but were instead predestined and that he could not have done otherwise as the Calvinist teaches?

    He, of course, will not take a stand here. He's not half as honest as it would require for that to happen. He'll likely ignore the point entirely and find some sort of way to repeat the lie he came here to propagate.

    Clete
    I assume when you talk about Peter's "repentance" you're talking about him not succumbing to the temptation in the first place, as he definitely repented afterward. If the future's not settled, then he didn't have anything to repent of until the moment it happened. Of course, if the future IS settled, then he would have had something to repent of, before he did it, which is a little ridiculous.

    way 2 go
    I don't think the future has to be settled for Jesus to have made the prediction confidently, as He did, without resorting to guessing. He knew Peter's heart, and that his bravado was mostly show. The aspect of Satan demanding to "sift Peter as wheat" harkens back to the book of Job, where a similar demand was made.

    In Job, Satan makes some interesting statements that confirm open theism, or at least confirm that he (Satan) thinks the future is open.

    [Job 1:9-11 KJV] 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

    Satan didn't hesitate to make a prediction about Job that would have been utterly foolish if Satan thought God either 1. could see into the future to know exactly how Job would react (Arminianism), or 2. had ordained exactly how Job would react (Calvinism). There still exists the possibility that Satan was ignorant about God's decrees or about God's ability to see into the future, but he actually had relationship with God, adversarial though it was, so it seems he would know at least something about how God perceives the future.

    And when Satan's first plan came up empty, he didn't say, "Drat! I forgot that you can see into the future." Rather he said,[Job 2:4-5 KJV] 4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. 5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

    You might protest that we don't want to get our theology from Satan, but we do something similar when we say the Pharisees confirm the Trinity when they put Jesus on trial for making Himself equal to God.

    One more thing. Satan confirms that he thinks people in general (though he was wrong about righteous Job) will "curse [God] to [His] face" when 1. they lose all they have or 2. when they are hit with serious disease or other physical oppression, similar to Rev 16. If both God and Satan think that, and Satan acts like an open theist in the book of Job, doesn't that make it possible for God to be an open theist with respect to Rev 16?
    Last edited by Derf; December 17, 2019, 03:11 PM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Clete View Post
      No it isn't! You know perfectly well that it is a false accusation.
      open theism teaches God is guessing it's practically in the title .

      You're a liar.


      You're either a Calvinist or you're not a Christian at all. Not even Calvinists are typically this prone to stubborn lying and so I suspect the later.
      you've run out of substance and all you have is ad hominem

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

        open theism teaches God is guessing it's practically in the title .
        Go one repeating the lie, liar!

        you've run out of substance and all you have is ad hominem
        No, you stopped debating from the very start of this. An ad hominem is a fallacious form of argument that takes the following form...

        way 2 go is a liar (or other pajorative)
        Therefore, way 2 go's position is false

        I am making no such argument. Actually, it is you who have been putting forward an ad hominem argument this entire time. Your entire tactic is based on the negative connotations inherent in the idea of "God guesses". It's nothing at all but a pejorative designed to elicit an emotional response, the very opposite of an intellectually honest or rational argument. There was some possibility that you came about the notion honestly which is why I started this exchange the way I did. Since then, you have proven yourself to be anything but honest and are in fact intentionally lying. My ONLY purpose for being here now is to point that fact out. So no, I am not making an ad hominem, I'm simply calling you what you are, a lying fool who isn't interested in debating doctrine or in the truth of what someone else believes. You are here to lie about Open Theism and that's the only reason you are here.

        Since you clearly think that ad hominems are bad, you should repent!


        So let's all sit back and see whether way 2 go is both a liar and a hypocrite!

        He totally is! The future is open and way2go is free to do whatever he chooses but God's fiery judgment will leave the Earth a burning cinder before he ever repents of his foolishness.

        Clete
        sigpic
        "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Derf View Post

          I assume when you talk about Peter's "repentance" you're talking about him not succumbing to the temptation in the first place, as he definitely repented afterward. If the future's not settled, then he didn't have anything to repent of until the moment it happened. Of course, if the future IS settled, then he would have had something to repent of, before he did it, which is a little ridiculous.
          That's a great point!

          And yes, I was thinking it terms of Peter not having denied Christ or perhaps, having done so one or even twice, repenting before he got the third denial out of his mouth. The point being that Jesus' prophecy did not have to come to pass as stated.

          way 2 go
          I don't think the future has to be settled for Jesus to have made the prediction confidently, as He did, without resorting to guessing. He knew Peter's heart, and that his bravado was mostly show. The aspect of Satan demanding to "sift Peter as wheat" harkens back to the book of Job, where a similar demand was made.

          In Job, Satan makes some interesting statements that confirm open theism, or at least confirm that he (Satan) thinks the future is open.

          [Job 1:9-11 KJV] 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

          Satan didn't hesitate to make a prediction about Job that would have been utterly foolish if Satan thought God either 1. could see into the future to know exactly how Job would react (Arminianism), or 2. had ordained exactly how Job would react (Calvinism). There still exists the possibility that Satan was ignorant about God's decrees or about God's ability to see into the future, but he actually had relationship with God, adversarial though it was, so it seems he would know at least something about how God perceives the future.
          Of course, the Calvinist would say that Satan was predestined to act as though the future was open, although they would never put it those terms because their stupidity would show through too easily but that is exactly what they believe. In spite of the fact that every aspect of reality presents itself consistent with Open Theism, they believe it all to be an illusion. Reality looks, swims and quacks just like an Open Theism duck but the Calvinist insists that its actually a settled future ostrich (or whatever the opposite of a duck is).

          And when Satan's first plan came up empty, he didn't say, "Drat! I forgot that you can see into the future." Rather he said,[Job 2:4-5 KJV] 4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. 5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

          You might protest that we don't want to get our theology from Satan, but we do something similar when we say the Pharisees confirm the Trinity when they put Jesus on trial for making Himself equal to God.
          Another excellent point and you're right, some might object but they'd be silly to do so. All true doctrine is consistent with reality. That's what it means for it to be true. Thus any true thing will find itself in harmony with correct doctrine, including the factually accurate actions of Satan.

          One more thing. Satan confirms that he thinks people in general (though he was wrong about righteous Job) will "curse [God] to [His] face" when 1. they lose all they have or 2. when they are hit with serious disease or other physical oppression, similar to Rev 16. If both God and Satan think that, and Satan acts like an open theist in the book of Job, doesn't that make it possible for God to be an open theist with respect to Rev 16?
          Now that is truly a brilliant argument. Wouldn't this be a terrific website if people who disagreed with Open Theism actually engaged such arguments and attempted to refute them in some sort of intellectually honest and intelligent manner? TOL used to be that way. Now, all way2go will do with this is less than nothing, if he even reads it to begin with. Disappointing.

          Clete
          sigpic
          "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Derf View Post
            And when Satan's first plan came up empty, he didn't say, "Drat! I forgot that you can see into the future."

            Rev 20:7 And whenever the thousand years are ended, Satan will be set loose out of his prison,
            Rev 20:8 and he will go to mislead the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them in war, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
            Rev 20:10 And the Devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they were tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

            about satan

            here satan will fight against God & God said he will be defeated

            but maybe satan might be open theist & think God is guessing

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by way 2 go View Post


              Rev 20:7 And whenever the thousand years are ended, Satan will be set loose out of his prison,
              Rev 20:8 and he will go to mislead the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them in war, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
              Rev 20:10 And the Devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they were tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

              about satan

              here satan will fight against God & God said he will be defeated

              but maybe satan might be open theist & think God is guessing

              Satan may still somehow think he can outsmart God, and thus cause the prophecies not to come to pass. If you take the prophecies as God saying what He will bring about in the future, no matter how bad the opposition gets, you can see why the opposition keeps trying. Again, that's not God guessing, that's the opposition not willing to submit to the idea that God is powerful enough to do what He proposes.

              Your obsession with the guessing idea is leading you astray.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Derf View Post

                Satan may still somehow think he can outsmart God, and thus cause the prophecies not to come to pass. If you take the prophecies as God saying what He will bring about in the future, no matter how bad the opposition gets, you can see why the opposition keeps trying. Again, that's not God guessing, that's the opposition not willing to submit to the idea that God is powerful enough to do what He proposes.
                You said satan did not acknowledge whether God had foreknowledge in Job
                & I showed you that satan has foreknowledge of his demise in revelation and is still going to go out the way God said he would.

                ... unless you are an open theist


                Your obsession with the guessing idea is leading you astray.
                how so?
                guessing is how God is portrayed in open theism, its OPEN


                I don't think the future has to be settled for Jesus to have made the prediction confidently, as He did, without resorting to guessing. He knew Peter's heart, and that his bravado was mostly show. The aspect of Satan demanding to "sift Peter as wheat" harkens back to the book of Job, where a similar demand was made.
                you had a point until Jesus added the details which made it foreknowledge and not an open theism "guess"

                Mar_14:30 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you that today, in this night, before the rooster crows twice, you shall deny Me three times.

                Comment


                • #38
                  It is proven!

                  way 2 go gives people a hard time about commiting ad hominems when they aren't doing so but then persists in doing so himself.

                  He is a proven liar and hypocrite. He must believe that God predestined him to be so.

                  I suspect he is also an unbeliever.
                  sigpic
                  "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    open theist have God in their image who is really smart but guessing .

                    Calvinist have God in a box called fate with no choices .

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

                      You said satan did not acknowledge whether God had foreknowledge in Job
                      I said Satan didn't acknowledge God could see into the future. That's not the same thing as having foreknowledge. Is 46 explains the main source of God's foreknowledge:
                      [Isa 46:10-11 KJV] 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken [it], I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed [it], I will also do it.

                      This is one of the strongest passages for Open Theism, despite settled theists trying to claim it, because it explains God's prophetic power. Since God doesn't purpose everything you do, you can still pick a different cereal for breakfast tomorrow.

                      This is different than the Peter denial scenario. I disagree with Clete that Peter could have stopped the denials--I don't think he could have--not because God was forcing him to deny, and not because the future was already settled, but because that was the kind (and timing and number) of temptation God had approved for Peter, and that was the state of Peter's character.

                      I agree with you that if Peter might have stopped denying prior to the last denial, then Christ/God was guessing.

                      The denial prediction was not of the same flavor as many prophetic passages whose very purpose is to elicit repentance. The purpose of the denial prediction, along with its fulfillment, was to bring about a realization in Peter of his faults, so that he could fully trust in Christ instead of himself.
                      & I showed you that satan has foreknowledge of his demise in revelation and is still going to go out the way God said he would.

                      ... unless you are an open theist
                      Satan has foreknowledge of God's plan based on reading the bible. But Satan hasn't yet agreed that it is his settled future.



                      how so?
                      guessing is how God is portrayed in open theism, its OPEN
                      Does God guess at what He wants to accomplish? Surely you will have to say "no". Does God accomplish what He wants to accomplish? "Yes." If He knows what He wants to accomplish, and is able to accomplish it, then there's no guessing on His part. There's just power.

                      Let's think about Peter's denial. Did God want Peter to deny Jesus?..........I think the answer is "no", but I can see a purpose (as described above) for the denial. But if God is the forcing power behind Peter's denial, then His kingdom seems to be a divided one. In other words, if God is somehow forcing Peter to deny Christ, then He's not being an encouragement to Jesus during a very tough time, and Peter doesn't have to accept responsibility for his denials. This is the Calvinist settled view. No good purpose is served unless Peter denies on his own--and then Peter can see his sin, being broken, and allow Jesus to build him back up to be a true leader of the church.

                      The other option is that God did not force Peter to deny Jesus, but could somehow see into the future to see what Peter would do. This is the Arminian settled view. But it is untenable once God needs to change anything in that "settled" future, which He would have to do before the foundation of the world. Then it slips back into Calvinism.


                      you had a point until Jesus added the details which made it foreknowledge and not an open theism "guess"

                      Mar_14:30 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you that today, in this night, before the rooster crows twice, you shall deny Me three times.
                      Details of Peter's actions can still be seen to be a description of Peter's character. Foreknowledge, yes. But the basis is the question.

                      Knowing when the rooster will crow is possibly an act of God's power, again (timing the natural actions of a bird), rather than just seeing into the future.

                      This is also the difference between divination and asking God for the outcome of a battle or other event.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Derf View Post
                        I said Satan didn't acknowledge God could see into the future. That's not the same thing as having foreknowledge. Is 46 explains the main source of God's foreknowledge:
                        [Isa 46:10-11 KJV] 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken [it], I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed [it], I will also do it.

                        This is one of the strongest passages for Open Theism, despite settled theists trying to claim it, because it explains God's prophetic power. Since God doesn't purpose everything you do, you can still pick a different cereal for breakfast tomorrow.

                        This is different than the Peter denial scenario. I disagree with Clete that Peter could have stopped the denials--I don't think he could have--not because God was forcing him to deny, and not because the future was already settled, but because that was the kind (and timing and number) of temptation God had approved for Peter, and that was the state of Peter's character.

                        I agree with you that if Peter might have stopped denying prior to the last denial, then Christ/God was guessing.

                        The denial prediction was not of the same flavor as many prophetic passages whose very purpose is to elicit repentance. The purpose of the denial prediction, along with its fulfillment, was to bring about a realization in Peter of his faults, so that he could fully trust in Christ instead of himself.
                        so Jesus knew Peter's future and was not guessing , not exactly open theism .


                        Satan has foreknowledge of God's plan based on reading the bible. But Satan hasn't yet agreed that it is his settled future.
                        satan has knowledge of God's plan it is God who knows what is going to happen to satan

                        Does God guess at what He wants to accomplish? Surely you will have to say "no". Does God accomplish what He wants to accomplish? "Yes." If He knows what He wants to accomplish, and is able to accomplish it, then there's no guessing on His part. There's just power.
                        Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
                        Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.

                        the Judgement God is not guessing at , that we all know but

                        open theism says God is guessing that "they did not repent" result

                        Let's think about Peter's denial. Did God want Peter to deny Jesus?..........I think the answer is "no", but I can see a purpose (as described above) for the denial. But if God is the forcing power behind Peter's denial, then His kingdom seems to be a divided one. In other words, if God is somehow forcing Peter to deny Christ, then He's not being an encouragement to Jesus during a very tough time, and Peter doesn't have to accept responsibility for his denials. This is the Calvinist settled view. No good purpose is served unless Peter denies on his own--and then Peter can see his sin, being broken, and allow Jesus to build him back up to be a true leader of the church.

                        The other option is that God did not force Peter to deny Jesus, but could somehow see into the future to see what Peter would do. This is the Arminian settled view. But it is untenable once God needs to change anything in that "settled" future, which He would have to do before the foundation of the world. Then it slips back into Calvinism.
                        then there is the fact that Jesus knew what peter would do settled or not .

                        Details of Peter's actions can still be seen to be a description of Peter's character. Foreknowledge, yes. But the basis is the question.

                        Knowing when the rooster will crow is possibly an act of God's power, again (timing the natural actions of a bird), rather than just seeing into the future.

                        This is also the difference between divination and asking God for the outcome of a battle or other event.
                        Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
                        Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.

                        open theism says God is guessing that "they did not repent" result


                        Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.
                        Rev 20:8 And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.
                        Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them.

                        open theism says God is guessing

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by way 2 go View Post

                          so Jesus knew Peter's future and was not guessing , not exactly open theism .
                          Of course not--not if you define open theism as guessing. This is what I was talking about--you've already decided what it is, and can't fathom anything else. Which makes it hardly worth discussing with you. But that's the same thing other anti-open-theism people do with open theism--they decide what it means, and can't let go of their home-made definition. That's officially called a straw-man argument.



                          satan has knowledge of God's plan it is God who knows what is going to happen to satan
                          More what God is going to do to Satan. It's not just some random things that will happen to Satan. And I believe God has the power to do those things. Satan may believe God does NOT have the power to do those things to him.

                          There are other parts of the story--what Satan is going to do. God is predicting Satan's actions in revelation. This may be very similar to how Jesus predicted Peter's denial--by knowing his character. God knows Satan's character. He knows what he will do when given power or when restrictions are removed.


                          Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
                          Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.

                          the Judgement God is not guessing at , that we all know but

                          open theism says God is guessing that "they did not repent" result
                          I thought we just went over this?? Open theism does not say God is guessing, but says God knows
                          1. what God will do
                          2. the exact character of the specific people He deals with
                          3. the general character of righteous people
                          4. the general character of wicked people


                          then there is the fact that Jesus knew what peter would do settled or not .
                          So you are admitting that God can know something that is going to happen even if it's not settled? This is important. God knew that He planned to destroy Nineveh, He told Nineveh they were going to be destroyed, but it wasn't settled. Was God guessing that He would destroy Nineveh? Isn't that a silly question?

                          And God knew that Hezekiah would die of his illness, and told him so. Then God knew the opposite--that Hezekiah would live through his illness, and told him so. God told Hezekiah two opposite things about how his life would end. The only way that God could be telling the truth to Hezekiah is if Hezekiah's fate changed in between the two predictions. And these predictions were delivered on the same day, probably just minutes apart. What option do you have to explain this story? If the future was settled so that Hezekiah would like for 15 more years, then saying he would die of the illness and needed to get his house in order was deception of God's part--a lie. Yet that was God's message to Hezekiah. I don't think it was a lie--which means that it was God's plan at the time the message was delivered. Then God's plan for Hezekiah changed when Hezekiah prayed for mercy.

                          What option are you offering on Peter's denial. You've already said you don't like Calvinism's view on it. I showed that the Arminian view is untenable. Would you like to either agree or disagree with that? If you disagree, can you say why I'm wrong? If you agree, can you say what your view is and how it differs from open theism?

                          Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
                          Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.

                          open theism says God is guessing that "they did not repent" result
                          We are both assuming that all of this is something that is indeed going to happen. If the purpose of such a prophecy were to convince the wicked to repent, and the wicked did indeed repent, then like Nineveh, the predicted catastrophe could be averted. And the story line is that the ones that don't repent continue to face the judgment of God. It's like saying "all those who did not repent cursed God. Then the next plague started, and those that did not repent cursed God some more. Then the next plague started..."

                          And there always seem to be plenty more people that hate God and His standards.



                          Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.
                          Rev 20:8 And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.
                          Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them.

                          open theism says God is guessing
                          God is guessing about what? That Satan will seek to deceive the nations? Why is that a guess. Do you think God is guessing about Satan's character?
                          Is God guessing that there will be multitudes that follow Satan? Why is that a guess? Do you think God believes all people will be ready to bow the knee to Him at that time? Remember that this is after Jesus rules with a rod of iron, so these people have been forced to follow the laws of the righteous King, and they hate it.

                          Not wanting to compare any current ruler too closely with Jesus, but can you see that this is happening even now in the US? The reason the democrats hate Donald Trump is not because he is so detestable, but because his policies are so detestable to them. And many of those policies are considered good ones by Christians, and if they are Spirit led, then those policies must be ones Jesus would approve of.

                          So why is it far-fetched that God can predict multitudes of people will detest His leadership and seek to defeat Him in battle? He doesn't say which ones. He doesn't name names. Even the Antichrist's name, nor his prophet, is not revealed, except through an enigmatic number.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Derf View Post
                            Of course not--not if you define open theism as guessing. This is what I was talking about--you've already decided what it is, and can't fathom anything else. Which makes it hardly worth discussing with you. But that's the same thing other anti-open-theism people do with open theism--they decide what it means, and can't let go of their home-made definition. That's officially called a straw-man argument.

                            define open theism without words similar to guessing

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Derf View Post


                              More what God is going to do to Satan. It's not just some random things that will happen to Satan. And I believe God has the power to do those things. Satan may believe God does NOT have the power to do those things to him.

                              There are other parts of the story--what Satan is going to do. God is predicting Satan's actions in revelation. This may be very similar to how Jesus predicted Peter's denial--by knowing his character. God knows Satan's character. He knows what he will do when given power or when restrictions are removed.


                              I thought we just went over this?? Open theism does not say God is guessing, but says God knows
                              1. what God will do
                              2. the exact character of the specific people He deals with
                              3. the general character of righteous people
                              4. the general character of wicked people

                              sounds like Calvinism where their choice has been predetermined .

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by way 2 go View Post
                                define open theism without words similar to guessing
                                God chooses what God will do. Man chooses what man wants to do. God either lets him or doesn't.

                                Nothing similar to guessing.

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